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Post by djehuti on Oct 26, 2024 3:03:00 GMT -5
Also, David Goldenberg in his The Curse of Ham book cites Bernard Lewis as saying that Arabs called themselves "black" relative to Persians but also "red" or "white" relative to Africans. Has Dana taken this into account when quoting Arab writers who describe themselves as black-skinned? It's funny you cite this considering that Dana was the first to point this out back in ES, that is Arabs (of Arabia) called themselves 'black' and lighter-skinned peoples 'red' which is strikingly the same as many Africans in regards to their color labeling. This is in striking contrast to the Hadiths which describe 'the messenger of Allah' as white and his tribe as white people. This is another clue that the Arabs of Arabia a.k.a. Saracens were different from the northern people called 'Arabs' who lived around Syria and Iraq. All the descriptions of Saracens were of tall black people who were scantily clad and wore head bands while the later Arabs were medium height, fair-skinned/white peoples who wore longer robes that covered most of their bodies and turbans.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 26, 2024 13:33:15 GMT -5
If ancient Arab quotes are to be used then they should be quoted with date and source "Dana said" is not enough
This is pretty old, 8 or 9th century
Every historical quote of Islamic writing is the opinion of a particular writer,
Al Jahiz here describes the Arabs here not as white or black but "ruddy",
Muhammad was born in approximately 570 CE in Mecca and belonged to the Quraysh tribe of the 'Adnanites'.
According to the Arab tradition, The Adnanites are the Northern Arabs, unlike the Qahtanite Arabs of southern Arabia, who are descended from Qahtan, son of the Islamic prophet Hūdʿ The Quraysh's progenitor was Fihr ibn Malik who Fihr belonged to the Kinana tribe and his descent is traced to Adnan the Ishmaelite, the semi-legendary father of the "northern Arabs". 230–240 CE), is counted among the direct ancestors of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. In the lineage of Muhammad from Adnan, he precedes Muhammad by eleven generations The Adnanites (Arabic: عدنانيون) were a tribal confederation of the Ishmaelite Arabs. They trace their lineage back to Ishmael and Abraham, his wife Hagar through Adnan, who originate from the Hejaz.
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Post by djehuti on Oct 26, 2024 14:12:15 GMT -5
^ The standard Islamic narrative is that 'Muhammad' and 'the Prophet' are the same person among many other presumptions. Also according to the Hadith there were other prophets or individuals calling themselves prophets. The description of Muhammad being fair-skinned or white differs from the accounts of black Saracens who held banners of the prophet as a black man with a headband which contradicts the later Islamic practice of forbidding images, especially images of 'the Prophet'. There is a whole lot of things about historical Islam that don't get discussed as well as what seems to be contradictory information. One of the confusions is the very term 'arab' which simply means one who lives in the wilderness or desert. That term came to mean an ethnic group after the Saracen invasions.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 26, 2024 15:38:46 GMT -5
^ The standard Islamic narrative is that 'Muhammad' and 'the Prophet' are the same person among many other presumptions. Also according to the Hadith there were other prophets or individuals calling themselves prophets. The description of Muhammad being fair-skinned or white differs from the accounts of black Saracens who held banners of the prophet as a black man with a headband which contradicts the later Islamic practice of forbidding images, especially images of 'the Prophet'. There is a whole lot of things about historical Islam that don't get discussed as well as what seems to be contradictory information. One of the confusions is the very term 'arab' which simply means one who lives in the wilderness or desert. That term came to mean an ethnic group after the Saracen invasions. also tell us Name a Saracen please
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 26, 2024 19:12:49 GMT -5
If these Black Saracens who spearheaded the so-called Islamic expansions in the 600s onward were South Semitic speakers, might they not left inscriptions or written documents behind? It seems a bit weird that a large proportion of the evidence for their existence comes from medieval European sources.
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