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Post by thelioness on Oct 13, 2024 13:55:34 GMT -5
Are Mongoloid, Negroid , Caucasoid and Australoid valid or synonymous terms valid anthropological categories?
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Post by djehuti on Oct 13, 2024 21:35:49 GMT -5
All the racial categories are scientifically speaking invalid because they are not based on accurately concise and objectively valid traits. At best those terms can be used to give on an idea of how a skull or person looks features wise but that's about it. Some of the traits included in in some of those categories are specious enough not to have any genetic basis at all. So for example "caucasoid" covers populations from Europe to the Horn of Africa and even India and all regions in between but genetics has disproven such relations. At the same time 'negroid' covers Sub-Saharans to peoples in South India and Andaman Islands but again no close relations. The problem gets worse the further back in time you go especially to the Pleistocene where you have skulls that conform to none of the racial categories.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 13, 2024 22:12:58 GMT -5
'negroid' covers Sub-Saharans to peoples in South India and Andaman Islands but again no close relations. Can you quote a source that calls people in South India negroid?
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Post by djehuti on Oct 14, 2024 21:58:26 GMT -5
^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works. From Wiki: The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness).
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Post by thelioness on Oct 18, 2024 13:38:33 GMT -5
^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works. From Wiki: The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness). According to the definition. It includes "dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type"Thus the girl and women below are not Negroid because if the definition included any type of hair, hair would not be mentioned in the definition and a skull alone would not inform on hair type It says a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" someone could have traits of Negroid but not enough to be Negroid . What is the likely skull type of these women? We have several traits indicated Negroid type, so someone might have a Negroid trait but not enough to be "A Negroid" indianetzone.wordpress.com/2019/07/13/south-indian-tribe/South Indian TribeSo if woolly or the frizzly type hair is part of the definition a lot of South Indians are excluded except Andamans (and possibly some others) . . __________________________________ Paniya People of Wayanad (in Kerala, Southern India)
Kerala, southwestern coastal state of India. constituting only about 1 percent of the total area of the country Until the arrival of settler peasantry from other parts of Kerala in the early nineteenth century, Wayanad was essentially home to the tribal population of Kerala. However, today these tribes form only 16 per cent of the total population of the district. Of all the adivasi communities in Wayanad, the largest population is that of the Paniya tribe, also known as Paniyar/Paniyan, recognised as a Scheduled Tribe. The Origin of the Paniya Tribe
The Paniya tribe is found in Wayanad, Kannur, Kozhikode and Malappuram districts of Kerala, and adjoining districts of Coorg in Karnataka and the Nilgiris in Tamil Nadu. Majority of the entire Paniya population of South India inhabit in Wayanad. According to the Census of 2011, there are 15,876 families of Paniya in Wayanad, contributing to a population of 69,116.
The term Paniya/Paniyan/Paniyar essentially means ‘someone who does work’ or ‘labourer’. In all likelihood, this name also suggests their social standing, as a community who does work for their landlords. Historically, Paniyas have been agrestic slaves who worked in the agricultural field of the janmis or landlords.
There are multiple legends and folklore associated with the origins of the Paniyas. They themselves suggest that they come from a place called Ippimala, a hilltop, where there lived only two individuals, a man and a woman. They believe that they were brother and sister above their torso, and below the torso, different individuals. The Paniyas believe that they are descendants of this couple from Ippimala. This couple, known as Ippimala Muttasi and Ippimala Mutappe in local language, is revered by the Paniya. No evidence to support this tale have been found, and hence the story remains a part of the legend...
Another suggestion about the origin of the Paniyas came from Edgar Thurston, a British administrator who documented the ethnography of people of South India in the early part of twentieth century. He suggested that the Paniyas have similar racial features to that of Africans. The theory suggested that they were shipwrecked on the Malabar coast. Another theory also suggests that the Paniyas were brought as workers to Wayanad by a king in Malabar. However, both these theories have been discarded due to lack of evidence to verify these claims. People of Wayanad This particular man looks quite African in his features. His hair is curly. A European or certain Africans could have that hair type. I hesitate to say he first into the Negroid category also considering the Paniya in general (assuming this Wayand man is one) the men in that old photo could be Australoid assuming that is a valid category. Some of them in that old photo have a thick brow ridge like some native Australians do AASI
Narasimhan et al. (2018) introduced the term AASI, "Ancient Ancestral South Indian"[note 1] (AASI) for these oldest human inhabitants, which were possibly distantly related to the common ancestors of East-Eurasians such as Andaman Islanders (such as the Onge), East Asians, and Australian Aboriginals.[20][21][22][23] According to Narasimhan et al. (2019), "essentially all the ancestry of present-day eastern and southern Asians (prior to West Eurasian-related admixture in southern Asians) derives from a hypothetical single eastward spread, which gave rise in a short span of time to the lineages leading to AASI, East Asians, Onge, and Australians.",[24] a lineage often referred to as "East-Eurasians"
_________________________________________________________________ ^^ The word "Negro" or "Negroid" is not used here "Negroid" is virtually synonymous to "looks like most Africans" Most Americans as opposed to Australians probably have never seen a native Australian in person. They do have some overlap with Africans. ^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works. From Wiki: The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness). Some of these traits are described "a greater or less tendency" "varying from...to" "a tendency towards" That's ambiguous definition, not reliable but still less broad than "Black" which, looking at the word only, some people might try to argue pertains to skin only (and again with no standard for cut off point) but how useful is that as a category of people one might as well say "the dark skinned people of the world" - unless "Black" means "looks like most Africans" including more than just skin or taken further to mean "a dark skinned person of African ancestry" This terms Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasoid and Australoid might be in limbo if not rejected as "race science" yet even with their deficiencies are less vague than "White" and "Black" and the rejected "Yellow" and "Red Skin" but the various "oids" are still vague because each one has more than one trait. I'm leaning to the whole thing , white, black the various "oids" are all obsolete for anthropology. but I think location references can still be valid such as identifying certain traits to be common in certain places, regions , countries, parts of countries
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Post by djehuti on Oct 19, 2024 19:12:07 GMT -5
^ While the Paniya have among the highest amounts of AASI ancestry, all that ancestry is outnumbered by ASI, and in some cases ANI in other populations. The predominant hair type among them is wavy, but ironically kinky hair occurs at higher frequency in other groups in India. Sathya Sai Baba with his signature afro. He's not the only one. Kinky or frizzy hair occurs as far north as the Punjab among certain communities like certain Jat tribes. In fact some of them look like 'yellow mulatto' types in complexion and hair type. The reason why racial categories are scientifically invalid is that they are constructs based solely on stereotypes. That "Negroid" originally encompassed a variety of populations outside of Africa was similar to how "Caucasoid" is applied to a variety of populations outside of Europe, including North and the Horn of Africa, to India, even as far east as Polynesia and Japan (Ainu). They are based on superficial traits and not true genetic populational entities.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 20, 2024 0:24:41 GMT -5
Nandigam Suresh a politician and speaker of the Dravidian language Telugu from Andhra Pradesh like Sai Baba Is he "Negroid" ? It seems a matter of opinion
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Post by archaeologist on Oct 20, 2024 13:40:37 GMT -5
Sometimes some people find it hard to see the difference between certain Indians and African Americans. That was used by an Indian man, Vijay Ingam, who shaved his hair and pretended to be an African American to be able to easier get into medical school. He has later been criticized for his action. He noticed that he overall got a worse treatment when people thought he was an African American than when they thought of him as an Indian. Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical schoolVijay Ingam as himself (left) and as an African American (right)
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Post by thelioness on Oct 20, 2024 14:44:26 GMT -5
Sometimes some people find it hard to see the difference between certain Indians and African Americans. That was used by an Indian man, Vijay Ingam, who shaved his hair and pretended to be an African American to be able to easier get into medical school. He has later been criticized for his action. He noticed that he overall got a worse treatment when people thought he was an African American than when they thought of him as an Indian. Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical schoolThe Al-Jahiz blacks list supposedly according to the Zanj over a thousand years ago: Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (the prides of blacks over the whites)
by Al-Jahiz (776-869)
"the blacks include:
the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores."
Notice here they say you can check more than one box but the black category has examples that are only people of African descent, in America "black" is most often used as synonymous with the obsolete "Negro/Negroid" and mainly of African descent (also notice they put Egyptian under their white examples) Solution: leave colors off the census, here is plenty of information here without colors
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