Are Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasoid and Australoid valid?

[thelioness]

Are Mongoloid, Negroid , Caucasoid and Australoid valid or synonymous terms valid anthropological categories? 

[djehuti]

All the racial categories are scientifically speaking invalid because they are not based on accurately concise and objectively valid traits. At best those terms can be used to give on an idea of how a skull or person looks features wise but that's about it. Some of the traits included in in some of those categories are specious enough not to have any genetic basis at all. So for example "caucasoid" covers populations from Europe to the Horn of Africa and even India and all regions in between but genetics has disproven such relations. At the same time 'negroid' covers Sub-Saharans to peoples in South India and Andaman Islands but again no close relations. The problem gets worse the further back in time you go especially to the Pleistocene where you have skulls that conform to none of the racial categories.

[thelioness]

Oct 13, 2024 21:35:49 GMT -5 djehuti said:

 'negroid' covers Sub-Saharans to peoples in South India and Andaman Islands but again no close relations. 

Can you quote a source that calls people in South India negroid? 

[djehuti]

^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works.
From Wiki:

The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness).

[thelioness]

Oct 14, 2024 21:58:26 GMT -5 djehuti said:

^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works.
From Wiki:

The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness).

According to the definition. It includes 

"dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type"

Thus the girl and women below are not Negroid 
because if the definition included any type of hair, hair would not be mentioned in the definition 
and a skull alone would not inform on hair type  

It says 

a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly"

 someone could have traits of Negroid but not enough to be Negroid .
What is the likely skull type of these women?  

We have several traits indicated Negroid type, so someone might have a Negroid trait but not 
enough to be "A Negroid" 

 







indianetzone.wordpress.com/2019/07/13/south-indian-tribe/
South Indian Tribe

So if woolly or the frizzly type hair is part of the definition a lot of South Indians are excluded except
Andamans (and possibly some others) 
.








.

__________________________________

Paniya People of Wayanad
(in Kerala, Southern India)

Kerala, southwestern coastal state of India. constituting only about 1 percent of the total area of the country
Until the arrival of settler peasantry from other parts of Kerala in the early nineteenth century,
Wayanad was essentially home to the tribal population of Kerala. However, today these tribes form only 16 per cent of the total population of the district.
Of all the adivasi communities in Wayanad, the largest population is that of the Paniya tribe, also known as Paniyar/Paniyan, recognised as a Scheduled Tribe.
The Origin of the Paniya Tribe

The Paniya tribe is found in Wayanad, Kannur, Kozhikode and Malappuram districts of Kerala, and adjoining districts of Coorg in Karnataka and the Nilgiris in Tamil Nadu. Majority of the entire Paniya population of South India inhabit in Wayanad. According to the Census of 2011, there are 15,876 families of Paniya in Wayanad, contributing to a population of 69,116.



The term Paniya/Paniyan/Paniyar essentially means ‘someone who does work’ or ‘labourer’. In all likelihood, this name also suggests their social standing, as a community who does work for their landlords. Historically, Paniyas have been agrestic slaves who worked in the agricultural field of the janmis or landlords.



There are multiple legends and folklore associated with the origins of the Paniyas. They themselves suggest that they come from a place called Ippimala, a hilltop, where there lived only two individuals, a man and a woman. They believe that they were brother and sister above their torso, and below the torso, different individuals. The Paniyas believe that they are descendants of this couple from Ippimala. This couple, known as Ippimala Muttasi and Ippimala Mutappe in local language, is revered by the Paniya. No evidence to support this tale have been found, and hence the story remains a part of the legend...

Another suggestion about the origin of the Paniyas came from Edgar Thurston, a British administrator who documented the ethnography of people of South India in the early part of twentieth century. He suggested that the Paniyas have similar racial features to that of Africans. The theory suggested that they were shipwrecked on the Malabar coast. Another theory also suggests that the Paniyas were brought as workers to Wayanad by a king in Malabar. However, both these theories have been discarded due to lack of evidence to verify these claims.

People of Wayanad










 

This particular man looks quite African in his features. His hair is curly. A European or certain Africans could have that hair type. 
I hesitate to say he first into the Negroid category also considering the Paniya in general (assuming this Wayand man is one)  
the men in that old photo could be Australoid assuming that is a valid category. Some of them in that old photo have a thick brow ridge 
like some native Australians do 

AASI 

Narasimhan et al. (2018) introduced the term AASI, "Ancient Ancestral South Indian"[note 1] (AASI) for these oldest human inhabitants, which were possibly distantly related to the common ancestors of East-Eurasians such as Andaman Islanders (such as the Onge), East Asians, and Australian Aboriginals.[20][21][22][23] According to Narasimhan et al. (2019), "essentially all the ancestry of present-day eastern and southern Asians (prior to West Eurasian-related admixture in southern Asians) derives from a hypothetical single eastward spread, which gave rise in a short span of time to the lineages leading to AASI, East Asians, Onge, and Australians.",[24] a lineage often referred to as "East-Eurasians"

_________________________________________________________________

^^ The word "Negro" or "Negroid" is not used here
"Negroid" is virtually synonymous to "looks like most Africans" 
Most Americans as opposed to Australians probably have never seen a native Australian in person. 
They do have some overlap with Africans. 

Oct 14, 2024 21:58:26 GMT -5 djehuti said:

^ I can't remember the specific sources, but it was more than one of the old time anthropology works.
From Wiki:

The Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (1910–1911), lists the following "well-defined characteristics" of the "Negroid" populations of Africa, southern India, Malaysia, and Australasia: "A dark skin, varying from dark brown, reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in traverse section, of the woolly or the frizzly type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth". The Encyclopædia Britannica sees a tendency towards a "tall stature" and "dolichocephaly" (long-headedness), with the exception of the Negritos who are described as showing "short stature" and "brachycephaly" (short-headedness).

Some of these traits are described
"a greater or less tendency"
"varying from...to"
"a tendency towards"
That's  ambiguous definition, not reliable
but still less broad than "Black" which, looking at the word only, some people might try to argue 
pertains to skin only (and again with no standard for cut off point)
but how useful is that as a category of people one might as well say 
"the dark skinned people of the world" 
- unless "Black" means "looks like most Africans" including more than just skin 
or taken further to mean "a dark skinned person of African ancestry" 
 
This terms Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasoid and Australoid might be in limbo 
if not rejected as "race science" yet even with their deficiencies are less vague 
than "White" and "Black" and the rejected "Yellow" and "Red Skin"
but the various "oids" are still vague because each one has more than 
one trait. I'm leaning to the whole thing , white, black the various "oids" are 
all obsolete for anthropology. 
but I think location references can still be valid such as identifying certain traits
to be common in certain places, regions , countries, parts of countries 
 

[djehuti]

^ While the Paniya have among the highest amounts of AASI ancestry, all that ancestry is outnumbered by ASI, and in some cases ANI in other populations. The predominant hair type among them is wavy, but ironically kinky hair occurs at higher frequency in other groups in India.

Sathya Sai Baba with his signature afro.



He's not the only one. Kinky or frizzy hair occurs as far north as the Punjab among certain communities like certain Jat tribes. In fact some of them look like 'yellow mulatto' types in complexion and hair type.

The reason why racial categories are scientifically invalid is that they are constructs based solely on stereotypes. That "Negroid" originally encompassed a variety of populations outside of Africa was similar to how "Caucasoid" is applied to a variety of populations outside of Europe, including North and the Horn of Africa, to India, even as far east as Polynesia and Japan (Ainu). They are based on superficial traits and not true genetic populational entities.

[thelioness]

 Nandigam Suresh a politician and speaker of the Dravidian language Telugu from Andhra Pradesh like Sai Baba 
Is he "Negroid" ?  It seems a matter of opinion

[archaeologist]

Sometimes some people find it hard to see the difference between certain Indians and African Americans. That was used by an Indian man, Vijay Ingam, who shaved his hair and pretended to be an African American to be able to easier get into medical school. He has later been criticized for his action. He noticed that he overall got a worse treatment when people thought he was an African American than when they thought of him as an Indian.

Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical school

Actress Mindy Kaling’s brother says that he posed as a black man years ago to get into medical school and that the experience opened his eyes to what he calls the hypocrisy of affirmative action.

The revelation comes as Vijay Chokal-Ingam, who is of Indian descent, is pitching a book about his experiences as a “hard-partying college frat boy who discovered the seriousness and complexity of America’s racial problems while posing as a black man.”

On his website, AlmostBlack.com, Chokal-Ingam says he hatched the plan in 1998after realizing in college that his grades weren’t going to be good enough to get into med school as an Indian-American.

“So, I shaved my head, trimmed my long Indian eyelashes, and applied to medical school as a black man,” he wrote on the website. “My change in appearance was so startling that my own fraternity brothers didn’t recognize me at first.”

He says he joined an organization for black students and applied to schools using his middle name, JoJo.
The plan had some drawbacks, said Chokal-Ingam, who describes himself now as a “professional resume writer, interview coach, and graduate school application consultant.”

“Cops harassed me. Store clerks accused me of shoplifting. Women were either scared of me or couldn’t keep their hands off me,” he wrote. “What started as a devious ploy to gain admission to medical school turned into a twisted social experiment.”

He says it worked. Despite a relatively mediocre 3.1 college grade-point average and a good-but-not-great score of 31 on the Medical College Admission Test, Chokal-Ingam claims he was wooed by several top medical schools.

He even posts documents on his website to bolster his claims, including an enthusiastic letter from a dean at the Emory University School of Medicine congratulating him on his “excellent scores” on the MCAT.

Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical school


Vijay Ingam as himself (left) and as an African American (right)

[thelioness]

Oct 20, 2024 13:40:37 GMT -5 archaeologist said:

Sometimes some people find it hard to see the difference between certain Indians and African Americans. That was used by an Indian man, Vijay Ingam, who shaved his hair and pretended to be an African American to be able to easier get into medical school. He has later been criticized for his action. He noticed that he overall got a worse treatment when people thought he was an African American than when they thought of him as an Indian.

Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical school


He says he joined an organization for black students and applied to schools using his middle name, JoJo.
The plan had some drawbacks, said Chokal-Ingam, who describes himself now as a “professional resume writer, interview coach, and graduate school application consultant.”

Mindy Kaling’s brother: I faked being black to get into medical school

The Al-Jahiz blacks list supposedly according to the Zanj over a thousand years ago: 


Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh
(the prides of blacks over the whites)

by Al-Jahiz (776-869)

"the blacks include:

the Zanj,
Ethiopians,
the people of Fazzan,
the Berbers,
the Copts, and
Nubians,
the people of Zaghawa,
Marw,
Sind and
India,
Qamar and
Dabila,
China, and
Masin...
the islands in the seas between
China and Africa are full of blacks, such as
Ceylon,
Kalah,
Amal,
Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores."




Notice here they say you can check more than one box but the black category 
has examples that are only people of African descent, in America "black" is 
most often used as synonymous with the obsolete "Negro/Negroid" and
mainly of African descent 

(also notice they put Egyptian under their white examples) 
Solution: leave colors off the census, here is plenty of information here without colors