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Post by imhotep06 on Sept 3, 2010 12:27:44 GMT -5
just to play devils advocate what if the KM is people of the black soil land and the DSHR is people of red soil lands? The problem with modern scholarship, even among some African researchers, is that they think like Europeans: they think with a literalist mind when traditional African thinking and associations were a lot more associative and poetic. I argue that your best bet is think in terms of a common theme in African societies in which the name of the land is the same as the name of the community. For instance, among the: Tallensi = TEN means "earth," but also "land and community." Igbo = OBODO "communty, homeland, family land." Dogon = GINNA "land and family" Tiv = TAR "land and family" Tshiluba/Bakongo = KANDA/KANGA "land, earth, family, community" The Dogon word GINNA is cognate with km.t. So is ciLuba/Kikongo KANDA. Km.t has nothing to do with "black people." It refers to "farm/fertile land" and is associated with family and community. km "farm" - Egyptic kaam "farm" - Basa kaam "farm" - Doai eKaam "farm" - Esitako kam "farm" - Ngodzin kumadin "farm" - Runda km "polis" - Egyptic kom "country, region" - Balue ekoma "city" -Okam kom "rural area" - Ndzem komwa "country, region" - Bateteka kumi "country" Bakweri khumbi "nation" - Zulu guma "country, region" - Pende gumo "village, city" - Dewoi gumi "rural area" -Caga gumba "city" - Lingala gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated - Galla/Oromo In an upcoming paper I will demonstrate that word km.t deals with ripeness, fertility, productivity, maturity, growth etc. The word KMT and CypyaCypya (Tshiopia, Ethiopia) have the same connotations in regards to "fire" (pia, kama) and "life." Dsrt is the opposite: that which is deprived of life. We can examine in ciLuba: ciSawudi (Swahili) of ciLuba Sawula (< swhi-r) 'cry aloud'. shuwula, shiwula / jiwula (swhy-r) "endanger death, exposing them to danger, run the danger, making perilous" suyila "to crush someone" and "irritate, annoy," Swai (< sw3i) "Shake, scatter, sow disarray," shawula "stunted, to degenerate, stunted, puny to, prevent the growth or development". di-sawila (s3wi) "gift". While bashenshi, basenshi (< S3I) or Ngulube-ya-Ditu "hog wild" that had only one goal: diSuya "oppression", swi (< swhi) "cries (distress)" and "desertification" (di-suya, di-osh < Swi). The dsr/dsr.t is a place, a person or a condition that "stunts growth" or "deprives it of life." By intimately engaging in the philosophy of the people, one will come to understand that the "life" of any nation is the FAMILY. |
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Post by olehint on Sept 3, 2010 16:06:54 GMT -5
The dsr/dsr.t is a place, a person or a condition that "stunts growth" or "deprives it of life." so this applies to the Nehesu? |
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Post by imhotep06 on Sept 3, 2010 17:55:46 GMT -5
I don't think so. I'm still investigating Nhsy(w) and looking for clues in the glyphs itself. As of yet, nothing stands out. There are a few matches and similarities with ciLuba I've observed:
nhs (Egyptian) = medicine drug
mu-Kushi / ba-Kushi, nKushi (ciLuba) = a protector, healer, savior (what medicine does and is a name applied to doctors) [bwanga being drug or medicine]
nkisi (Kikongo) = medicine, drug
nhsi (Egyptian) = to wake (also a watcher)
Nkesho (ciLuba) = morning (good), day (as to awaken to it)
nh (Egyptian) = offer shelter, protect
Nkoshi = Nkozi = nSokomenu, cyeyemenu (ciLuba) = shelter, refuge
If ciLuba gives us a guide, then the word k3s may be a root for Nhsy as these words demonstrate:
(ciLuba)
Kushi (i), mpulushi >>> Redeemer, Savior. Hence: bu-kushi, redemption, protector, salvation
(ciLuba)
mu-Kushi / ba-Kushi, nKushi (nhsy) "savior, redeemer, protector"
(Egyptian)
nhs = medicine, drug
(ciLuba)
>>>> Keshia >>> yesterday, tomorrow
>>>> Keshio (n-/lu-) >>> tomorrow, morning
>>> Nkeesha = Ncisha = paCyacya >>> Morning Star, dawn, early morning
>>> Nkesho >>> morning (good) day
(CiLuba)
>>> Kweshi >>> winnower, discerner, scout and is related to Mweshi, Mwezi, Mweji, Mwenji = moon
>>> Ngeshi, Ngezi >>> basketry, van, winnower, to think, what to think, discern, sort
(ciLuba)
Kashi, Kaji >>> Dancer, plur. Tushi
(Egyptian)
Ksks [reduplication] >>> Dancer, Nubian Dancer
We should note that in ciLuba: Nangisha >>> to love, to desire. If Nhsy is Nangisha, it would have the same connotations as Ta-Mry "the beloved land" as you would also say Ta Nhsy.
One should also note, although not an exact match, the following:
nhp(w) (Egyptian) = rise in the morning, morning, sunrise
Nkeesha = Ncisha = paCyacya (ciLuba) >>> Morning Star, dawn, early morning
Nkesho >>> morning (good) day
What if the /h/ or /k/ is the root and the /p/ a suffix? This appears to be the case in ciLuba.
There is a rendering of nhsy with a tree branch as the determinative. One could speculate Nyekeshia >>> Perpetuate, extend (infinitely = Nyeki Nyeki), as a tree branch is an extension of the tree: it propagates forward from the tree. The words for tree in Niger-Congo often also carry the meanings of "root, origin, seed, base, to sprout, propagate." Could Nhsy have been thought of as the "extension" of Egypt?
Ogden Goelet in his article Kemet and Other Names for Their Land noted that before Egypt was known as Ta-Mry or Kmt, that it was simply known as HNW "the interior." If Egypt was the "interior" then Nhsy would definitely be the "extension." More evidence would need to be provided for this hypothesis.
But it is not my contention that Nhsy has the same meaning as Dsrt. Keep in mind that for the Southern Egyptians, Dsrt/Dsrw also means "holy."
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Post by olehint on Sept 4, 2010 1:25:39 GMT -5
magnifying glass required to read quotes |
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Post by Dawn2Earth on Oct 5, 2010 5:35:02 GMT -5
What of the fact that, at least from the Western authors i've read, Km appears to be attached to other concepts related to intervals like someone being "finished" or "done in" i.e death and with Ressurection which have to do with the this "Kem Wer" netjer Ausar.
I understand that km, as in twinkle, may have to do with a fulfilling of a cycle than some thing flickering on and off.
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 5, 2010 9:54:25 GMT -5
km is related to a bunch of terms that don't have anything to do with color. The concept of being "finished" or "done" has nothing to do with death or resurrection. The expression derives from the observation of the "ending" of a "growth" cycle, like that of a plant. When you examine other African cognates, the core means "to express fully" or "to sprout."
A clue is to examine many of the terms which have the causative s- (ashe in Yoruba, Asha in ciLuba) in front of the km glyph (s-km). But again, there is a larger context for all of these renderings and without the larger context, and the reconstructed linguistic data, all of these notions of "blackness" is folk etymology.
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Post by olehint on Oct 7, 2010 0:32:43 GMT -5
I heard these people arguing the same thing about KM
One was saying if KM meant black skinned then why didn't they use it for the Kush and add some word for foreign.
foreign KMs.
But on the other side sayin it has to do with Ogun and some kind of "African Super Highway of Wisdom", that's stretching real heavy to me.
That's like that Afurakanu/Afuraitkaitnut thing, brothas is trippin off making words up by copying and pasting bits and pieces from different languages acting like this is what ancient Africans was calling themself.
Problem is they wasn't. They was calling out all the local names, just like today
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 7, 2010 4:04:52 GMT -5
This is stretching for someone who hasn't examined the facts. This isn't a "made-up" association and this isn't about the African Superhighway of Wisdom, as this is about pure linguistics and inherited lexemes. The k-m root (on one level) represents the color "black" and charcoal across Africa. The place-name for km.t in ancient ciKam (Egyptian) is represented by a charred piece of wood (charcoal). Charcoal in Yoruba is ogunna. Black in Yoruba is agin, ogan, and egàn. Yoruba: Gún “finished product” or "complete." We also have èkun (k-n) “ends, limits.” in Yoruba we also have egàn “virgin forest, black loamy soil/fertile soil." This is the same word for "black" in Yoruba. This is not a "chance correspondence" or due to borrowing. The Egyptian /k/ corresponds to Yoruba /g/ in the initial position and we have dozens of terms to verify this fact. The same with Egyptian /m/ corresponding to Yoruba /n/ in medial position. The context in which Ogun = Km(t) is too much to explain here, thus why I am writing a larger treatise so we can dead this argument. I will give KMT's true origins and again, it is not in the word "black." What no-one has done is examine this term in its full context by examining the term and its usage across Africa. This is what I'm doing in the book. We get into these silly debates because we want to examine the term only using Egyptian which leads to folk etymology. I will also point out the mistakes that Diop made as well when he attempted to argue that kmt meant black skin. More to come.... I heard these people arguing the same thing about KM One was saying if KM meant black skinned then why didn't they use it for the Kush and add some word for foreign. foreign KMs. But on the other side sayin it has to do with Ogun and some kind of "African Super Highway of Wisdom", that's stretching real heavy to me. That's like that Afurakanu/Afuraitkaitnut thing, brothas is trippin off making words up by copying and pasting bits and pieces from different languages acting like this is what ancient Africans was calling themself. Problem is they wasn't. They was calling out all the local names, just like today |
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Post by olehint on Oct 7, 2010 11:31:40 GMT -5
you talking about the KM root is used all over Africa but gave no examples.
Then you went to Yoruba you weren't even showing the KM root. You on a whole different root Oogan, agin etc.
Where's the KM at ?
Then you got a K out of ekun. That means theres a connection just because you found the same sound for one letter in another language? It's not even the first letter like KM.
So you got a K. But if you got a K why you then bother to say the Egyptian K connect with the Yoruba G ?
Two different sounds, how that work? They don't connect it's two differnt languages, differnt roots.
O.k. so let's go with that G means K. So if G mean K then what about ekun?
So now you tellin me G mean K and K also mean K? You got two letters meaning the same sound.
you stretching.
Only thing you prove is that two differnt languages got two differnt word for charcoal, none of the sound even match up.
What you trying to do basically is to connect up words base on they used to name the same object. These countries Egypt and Nigeria clear on opposite sides of the continent, plus one North the other West Central. The Nile not even going over West like that.
This is some American thing trying to connect every West country up to Egypt.
that might be nice to try to unify the history, but it got to be solid, not on spec
But I'm glad we off the twinkle, thing that was annoying, try to say it represent black. We got to stop stretching and keep it real
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 7, 2010 12:14:16 GMT -5
You obviously don't know anything about comparative linguistics and I won't waste my time trying to explain phonetic sound shifts and correspondences. I've given plenty of examples in my second book The Bakala of North America: The Living Suns of Vitality. And yes, KALA is also cognate with KM. Secondly, in Egyptiand AND in Yoruba G <> K, which means the /g/ sound and the /k/ alternate. For instance, in Egyptian km wr is also written as gn wr. Ka "power" is also written as Ga "power." I've already delt with, in another thread, the alternation and correspondences between Egyptian /k/ and Yoruba /g/ and /k/: www.asarimhotep.com/documentdownloads/Ciluba-Egyptian-Yoruba-k-cognates.pdfI won't waste my time with you any more on this as you have a ways to go. |
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Post by olehint on Oct 7, 2010 20:22:09 GMT -5
you didnt make a thorough case Ogun phonological to KM. also where the morphology to back it up?
you connecting the wrong dots
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 7, 2010 21:35:40 GMT -5
It wasn't meant to be a thorough case for Ogun. That's what the book is for. The few examples out of dozens more I revealed to you was to demonstrate 1) the alternation of g/k in Yoruba and 2) some correspondences between Yoruba g-n roots with Egyptian k-m.
Since you are one to critique, falsify my data. Demonstrate how it is humanly possible for these to be a "coincidence" or due to borrowing. The morphology concept is already taken care of in the book and has been tackled by dozens of scholars before me (Obenga and Oduyoye to name a few). That is not a problem in the least bit.
You have some work to do.
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Post by olehint on Oct 7, 2010 22:37:45 GMT -5
imhotep -"km is related to a bunch of terms that don't have anything to do with color. The concept of being "finished" or "done"
km has nothing to do with death or resurrection. The expression derives from the observation of the "ending" of a "growth" cycle, like that of a plant. When you examine other African cognates, the core means "to express fully" or "to sprout."
A clue is to examine many of the terms which have the causative s- (ashe in Yoruba, Asha in ciLuba) in front of the km glyph (s-km). But again, there is a larger context for all of these renderings and without the larger context, and the reconstructed linguistic data, all of these notions of "blackness" is folk etymology."
-Folk mythology? Ashra Kwesi's not gon be happy about that one but you might have a point.
"resurrection" might not be the best word, "sprouting" might be better but it not completely different form resurrection which is a little like a metaphor of sprouting (except the death part not exactly there but then agin, a seed gets buried too)
I think you got to prove it with the original Meriotic context instead of only going to single words from West Africa.
Now if you go to "sprout" and "express fully" and "end of a cycle" if you take that and put it up with the Kemites using it to describe themselfs then it don't seem to fit.
It seems more like either skin or people of the charcoal colored soil.
And if you gonna talk about sprouts and cycles we already connected to soil because that's where the sprouts is coming up out of. The Nile got that special black soil. So it's got to be skin or the soil.
But look even if we forget about what the people called themself you got to look at all the words that got that KM and all the other kemetic words that have "kem" behind them and see what makes sense when you look at all those other words with a kem foundation.
The problem is that the dfinitions is all over the map. We got kemu means seed and kem.tt means plant like you said but we also got kem meaning black wood or charcoal
There's no way to resolve it
wally's probably gon come up in here and put in his two cents
I can't say you wrong or right, cause we never know
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 8, 2010 0:14:51 GMT -5
Ashra Kwesi is someone I respect for what he does, but there is a lot of information that he states that just cannot be backed up by the data. If he is about truth, I don't think he will be too upset. Plus, I know many people in the African centered community will at first not like my results because it appears to give the Eurocentrists a leg up on this argument. I have to follow truth.
However, it is my opinion that my findings actually further demonstrate the African character of the term and people. There is much misconceptions and it is primarily because many researchers are not tied intimately to the cultures under examination. This is even true for many African scholars who don't perform divination; or who has never seen a king installed; or are not involved in the oral and priestly traditions. Because they do not "live" the expressive culture, they miss a lot trying to fit everything into a neat academic milieu.
As I have stated previously, the word km in proto-western-sudanic is *ka, *kal, *kan. I will demonstrate how this term is expressed in various African languages and the cultural elasticity of each term. Linguistics is not how it used to be. Older scholars were looking for one-to-one exact matches and didn't understand the concept of the "associative field" of lexemes which creates numerous terms from a single root which all belong to the same semantic theme: often with the word spelled the exact same (like the egan "black" and egan "soil, dark forest" mentioned above).
It is my argument that by examining the many characteristics of the Yoruba term/deity Ogun and how it is applied in the spiritual system of Ifa, one can better understand the many usages of km in the ancient Egyptian language. What one comes to realize is that the Yoruba deified certain concepts while the Egyptians didn't and vice versa. The vast majority of the characteristics of Ogun is associated with a term in ancient Egyptian with the k-m root. For instance, Ogun in old times was associated with snakes and was a snake charmer. The root of the word Ogun is Ga/Gu. A word for snake in Egyptian is KA. Another word for snake in Egyptian is KMY. In late Egyptian the term KMY was pronounced GANY (g-n).
I will cite many connections that when added together cannot be in no way "chance" coincidence and helps us to better understand kmt as a concept and a placename and why they used the term in the first place.
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Post by olehint on Oct 8, 2010 3:16:28 GMT -5
Some people might say that if a person is personally tied to a culture then they would be biased as a researcher, not objective. and also maybe you can't reveal all you ideas yet because you have a book coming out.
however imhotep06 you seem honest and serous about what you are doing. What other researchers have proven true detail linguistic connects between Yoruba and Kemet?
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