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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 12, 2013 20:31:58 GMT -5
You are on games. I thought you had something. continuing ...
Next up -
Ang Skin Color Variation in Orang Asli Tribes of Peninsular Malaysia
Abstract: Pigmentation is a readily scorable and quantitative human phenotype, making it an excellent model for studying multifactorial traits and diseases. Convergent human evolution from the ancestral state, darker skin, towards lighter skin colors involved divergent genetic mechanisms in people of European vs. East Asian ancestry. It is striking that the European mechanisms result in a 10-20-fold increase in skin cancer susceptibility while the East Asian mechanisms do not. Towards the mapping of genes that contribute to East Asian pigmentation there is need for one or more populations that are admixed for ancestral and East Asian ancestry, but with minimal European contribution. This requirement is fulfilled by the Senoi, one of three indigenous tribes of Peninsular Malaysia collectively known as the Orang Asli. The Senoi are thought to be an admixture of the Negrito, an ancestral dark-skinned population representing the second of three Orang Asli tribes, and regional Mongoloid populations of Indo-China such as the Proto-Malay, the third Orang Asli tribe. We have calculated skin reflectance-based melanin indices in 492 Orang Asli, which ranged from 28 (lightest) to 75 (darkest); both extremes were represented in the Senoi. Population averages were 56 for Negrito, 42 for Proto-Malay, and 46 for Senoi. The derived allele frequencies for SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 in the Senoi were 0.04 and 0.02, respectively, consistent with greater South Asian than European admixture. Females and individuals with the A111T mutation had significantly lighter skin (p = 0.001 and 0.0039, respectively). Individuals with these derived alleles were found across the spectrum of skin color, indicating an overriding effect of strong skin lightening alleles of East Asian origin. These results suggest that the Senoi are suitable for mapping East Asian skin color genes.
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Post by zarahan on Nov 12, 2013 20:47:58 GMT -5
Herodotus says: As you can see, Bushmen fall between Europeans and Yoruba ("Negroes"). They are lighter brown skinned, but not white like Europeans. Didn't say San would be pale like low pigmented Northern Europeans. With their light skin, they fall within the range of some "white" southern Europeans. Again, your claim: "There are no Africans with 1 - 14" remains inaccurate. Djoser-xyzman says: To those who are following the discussion……
So what do we have here?. Now it is outright lies. You(H) have moved from tricks, misdirection and strawman argument to outright lies.
We started on SLC45A2, you saying Africans do NOT carry the derived. I proved you wrong, Africans carry the derived AND ancestral SLC45A2. Derived at 25%.
You then switched to SLC24A2 when I told you that you MAY have a better argument with SLC24A2 since it has a greater impact than SLC45A2 on skin pigmentation. But, guess what, you are WRONG with that also.
You are NOT faring very well my man. 0-2. Infact 0-3 including blue eyes. TYRP1 (Ch9p23
Indeed. Excellent work.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 12, 2013 21:56:51 GMT -5
Keep in mind I am not arguing Africans are as white as Europeans. That is strawman tactic. H is framing the argument as such. Clear deception by him. Agreed some Africans may be of the same shade as Southern Europeans. But again, some East Asians are fairer than Northern Europeans.
My argument and the data and research presented show that ALL the genetic markers for pale skin ORIGINATED in Africa. Furthermore Africans have the 90% of the "novel" and the most ancient of the Derived genetic markers for pale skin. ALL OF IT!!!!! These markers are found in of all peoples the San and pygmies.
Obviously the man hasn't read the recent papers or just clowning around.
All recent papers prove yet again... Europe ...and Asia is a genetic subset of Africa.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 12, 2013 22:03:10 GMT -5
What he does NOT get is all the recent papers agree with each other. Senegalese are NOT 1/4 European. Yet they carry aboout 1/4 derived SLC24A5. Which is agreement with Shriver et al. "Unexplained Heritability" OP chart. Which led the researchers to make the statement " white before leaving Africa".
Don't waste your time. the man is a clown. I thought he had game. I can overload him with charts and data but why waste my time.
He repeating the same nonsense doesn't convince anyone. I cited at least 4 recent sources.
Let me continue............
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Post by anastasiaescrava on Nov 12, 2013 23:03:54 GMT -5
Did i miss the eye info?
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 13, 2013 1:22:29 GMT -5
I know that. But when we say white, exactly what do we mean? White like who exactly? How light does one have to be to be considered "white" skinned? Light skin is 1 - 14 on the Luschan Scale. Dark skin is 24 - 36. Between these extremes are light/medium brown shades. There are no Africans with 1 - 14, this range falls outside African diversity. What does this scale look like? Is there a color chart anywhere that you could post?
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Post by zarahan on Nov 13, 2013 2:00:37 GMT -5
What he does NOT get is all the recent papers agree with each other. Senegalese are NOT 1/4 European. Yet they carry aboout 1/4 derived SLC24A5. Which is agreement with Shriver et al. "Unexplained Heritability" OP chart. Which led the researchers to make the statement " white before leaving Africa". Don't waste your time. the man is a clown. I thought he had game. I can overload him with charts and data but why waste my time. He repeating the same nonsense doesn't convince anyone. I cited at least 4 recent sources. Let me continue............ He keeps repeating the same debunked arguments slightly rephrased but still to no avail. And he is not addressing your data in detail, but ducking them. But if this is incorrect, the floor is open to rebut your data. So far there hasn't been anything convincing on this score. You clearly show how the gene is derived in Africans and ancestral for example. But all your efforts are valuable and educational. More of this sort of thing is needed. There are folks out there who still have not moved beyond Diop circa 1974, unaware of the many changes. Then there are other folks who rely on pop culture utterances- enthusiastic but sometimes misinformed. Then there are other folk who desire and seek accurate info but are intimidated by the technical data and bogus propaganda designed to discourage them from that desire or seeking. What you are doing bridges the gap between these categories- breaking data down so it is digestible by the masses. The final end in view is a more balanced picture of African bio-history. Keep up the good work!
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 5:54:39 GMT -5
TYRP1 (Ch9p23) and DCT (Ch13q32) While TYR catalyses the key initial step in melanin production, TYRP1 and DCT (TYRP2) act at subsequent steps, influencing the quantity and the quality of melanins and stabilizing the TYR enzyme. They also have some function in melanocyte survival after ultraviolet radiation (UVR) stress and in the maintenance of melanosomal structures. The TYRP gene family evolved by recurrent gene duplication from a common ancestral TYR early in evolution giving rise to TYRP1 and DCT [80]. In humans, mutations of TYRP1 causing OCA3 are frequently observed in South Africa [13]. Part of this phenotype is red bronze skin, ginger-red hair and blue irides. In a surprising finding, it was recently reported that a nonsynonymous amino acid change, Arg93Cys, in the TYRP1 protein is a major determinant of the blonde hair phenotype. This allele has a frequency of 0.26 on the Solomon Islands and is not seen outside of Oceania, so it DJOSER: INDIGENOUS SOUTH AFRICANS HAVE A HIGHER FREQUENCY OF BLUES EYES AND REDDISH HAIR THAN TROPICAL AFRICANS. NO ADMIXRURE NEEDED. BEING FAMILIAR WITH THE CARIBBEAN PEOPLES. I HAVE SEEN THIS PHENOMENON IN THE ISLANDERS. ONE PAPER I READ SAID IT OCCURS IN 1-600 WEST AFRICANS. (Box 1). In the European population TYRP1 rs1408799*A has been associated with blue eye color [24,25], though other SNPs are also associated with blue eyes [49,83], so the causative SNP is yet to be recognized.. DJOSER: DO YOU KNOW WHY THIS PHENOTYPES(EG BLUE EYES) IS FOUND SO FREQUENTLY IN SOUTH AFRICA AND THE SOLOMON ISLANDS??? IF YOU SUGGEST ANYTHING ABOUT ADMIXTURE THE EDUCATION STOPS HERE!!!. TIC! TOC! SLC24A5 (Ch15q21.1) Lamason and coworkers [89] reported that a mutation in Quillen and coworkers [47] estimate the effect of rs1426654*C/T on melanin index, via admixture mapping, to be of the same magnitude as the SLC45A2 rs1426654*A/374Phe change, and their data seem consistent with an ****additive****, rather than a dominant, allelic effect of the SLC24A5 rs1426654*A/111Ala allele on skin reflectance. Interestingly, in the indigenous American populations they studied, the rs1426654*A/111Ala allele is at intermediate frequencies, and shows no evidence of selection [47], while there is strong evidence for selection in Europeans. Mouse Slc24a5 null animals have normal Apart from protecting against the damaging effects of solar UVR, melanin has several other roles in the body, including scavenging reactive oxygen species, protecting nutrients from photodamage and possibly modulating the inflammatory response. Melanin can also provide camouflage, transport energy and bind drugs, and is involved in hearing, sight and regulation of body heat [103].DJOSER: THERE IS THAT "ADDITIVE": WORD AGAIN. NOTE: MELANIN MAKES YOU SEE WELL, MELANIN MAKES YOU KEEP WARM, MELANIN MAKE S YOU ENERGETIC, MELANIN LOWERS THE RISK OF CANCER, MELANIN AIDS NUTRIENT UPTAKE, MELANIN MAKES YOU HEAR BETTER, MELANIN IS A CURE FOR PSYCHOTIC DISEASES EG DEPRESSION AND SUICIDAL TENDENCIES, MANIC DEPRESSION AND VIOLENT OUTBURST. MELANIN MAKES THE BODY HEAL FASTER. DID I LEAVE ANYTHING OUT? MALANIN MAKES OR MADE US HUMAN?
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 6:05:10 GMT -5
Diop did his part. But there so much has advance since then. Europeans have absolutely nada, nothing, no influence in Africa until maybe the last 400years. In fact I question the extent of their impact in ancient Greece.
According to genetic markers, old and new, most Greeks are categorize with Bedoiuns and North Africans. I am waiting on them to do some in depth aDNA of Greece circa 1500BC. Some skeletal studies from the same period would be helpful. Nothing thus far.
To those who are following. Otzi Alps ice-man did NOT carry the SLC45A2, neither the HERC2. Meaning, per my man(H) hypothesis, he is NOT white with blue eyes. Yet he is potrayed all over the net with white skin and blue eyes. Talk about delusional!!!!
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Post by herodotus on Nov 13, 2013 7:31:25 GMT -5
Dude, you need to make up your mind on what your argument is. First you argued that Africans do not carry derived SLC45A2 which is the so called “white gene”. I debunked that nonsense showing that Africans carry the derived AND underived SLC45A2. Derived at about 25%. Again proving you are at a lost with this stuff. You are all style and no substance , classic Euronut trickery with strawman argument. I told you that SLC24A5 has greater impact than SLC45A2 on skin pigmentation and now you are on the SLC24A5 bandwagon. I debunked your nonsense that Africans cannot carry blues eyes without European intervention. In fact I am at a lost now on what EXACTLY is you argument. I am still waiting on that “uncle”, before we continue. It seems like you are arguing that I am saying that “Europeans are not white”. That is a strawman. Are you that stupid. I told you stop wasting my time. This is your last warning I never came across a racialist smarter than me. You do know the difference between a racist and racialist Sub-Saharan Africans do not carry derived SLC45A2. Let's first go to SNPedia which is updated regularly: snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982"This snp influences skin pigmentation. The allele p.L374F indicates light-skinned european ancestry" You are debunked. The above is even referenced by Norton et al. Take a look! Completely absent from Sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia, only appearing minor in West Asia and North Africa through recent gene flow with Europeans. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/pigmentation-phylogeny-history-and-adaptation/SLC45A2 is European.
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Post by herodotus on Nov 13, 2013 7:56:22 GMT -5
My bad!, you are right. Nigerians are 10% Europeans, San are 7% European, Senegalese are almost ¼(23%) European and Sudanese are 2% European. And the Pygmies 3% European. Even more than the Sudanese. Man, You are a genius. Yet the Africans carry the most diverse and novel allele of derived SLC24A5 In the words of Shriver quote: "These results suggest that an APBA2 (OCA2) mutation conferring light skin arose BEFORE the spread of humans out of Africa,....." You hold a discredited view on genetics - that there are somehow genetically "pure" populations composed of 100% "African" genes. This is pseudo-science. There has always been non-African genes in Africans, like non-European genes in Europeans through gene flow. Derived SLC24A5 is European in origin and entered Africa around 3000 years ago: "The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya)." (Pagini et al. 2012) Note how (coastal) East Africans have the highest frequency, second to North Africans. So the frequency distribution supports gene flow as well. This is support by additional data - "Blood samples from members of the Oromo and Amhara ethnic groups of central Ethiopia were tested for 10 erythrocyte protein systems: ACP1, ADA, AK1, CA2, ESD, G6PD, GLO1, HBβ, PGD, and PGM1. Differences between the two samples were relatively slight and not statistically significant. Gene frequency distributions were then analyzed in the context of the genetics of the African and Arabian peoples. Considering the erythrocyte enzyme data, the Oromo and Amhara appear quite similar to Europoids (particularly to the South Arabians) and considerably different from the Negritic peoples. There is evidence for close genetic affinity among the Cushitic- and Semitic-speaking population groups of the Horn." onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-6300%281996%298:4%3C505::AID-AJHB11%3E3.0.CO;2-Q/abstractDerived SLC24A5 in East Africans is just further evidence of gene flow with West Asians.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 19:42:33 GMT -5
Look man..If you are not willing to open your mind and learn..we are done. There you go again. I am not going to get into a high schooler argument over who is darker or lighter than whom. The bottom-line is what I said still stands. Blues eyes and light skin IS indigenous to Africa…no European …or East Asian admixture needed. This is what contemporary research has shown. Infact it is Africans that gave Europeans …and East Asians their pale skin. And in case you missed it. They, the Africans, screwed up with the European version. How? You tell me…let’s see how smart you are? I really don’t get involved in pseudoscience mumbo jumbo about x-oids and x-gritic etc. That is why I don’t visit those looney bin name calling forums. It is like Alice in Wonderland with those guys. They can't tell voodoo or witchery from real science. I am about hard facts and science. For entertainment I go to ES and Lioness. Ignoring the x-oid nonsense. (I am totally confused by the terms, Schez-oid, Heamor-hoid, trepa-zoids). This is the last time I am going to repeat this. Blood antigen has limited value . This is the Genetic Age. GWAS/AIM/HGDP/HAPMAP/GENOGRAPHIC/Haplogroups is where it is at in 2013. 2014 promises to be much more exciting. These are the datasets that are used in MODERN SCIENCE. SPECULATIVE scenarios does NOT replace mathematical models. Keeping in mind these are still models. I am NOT going to address outdated science like ABO blood groups etc. YOU got to keep up. I show you this, the last chart,…and you cry Pagani!, Pagani! Pagani! In case you missed it. Pagani’s data was ALSO included. That chart is a better OVERALL representation for SLC24A2 "Globally". Africans carry the most “novel” allele of SLC24A5. Even the “coastal Pygmies”(sic). My guess is they sampled San, Pygmies, Senegalese when they travelled to visit their aunties (sic) living in the coastal cities and not where these tribal groups live.(wink). ANYWAAAAYS! And on SLC45A2 – evidently you did NOT read the paper. Because you keep repeating the same nonsense that Africans do NOT carry the derived allele. They do …..at 25%. If you had read the Nov2013 paper you would admit it. So obviously you are being stubborn, did not read it..or just ignoring facts. We are done. Please…open a new thread…and talk to yourself. Yes, SLC45A2 is found primarily IN Europeans, but it is NOT European in origin. ALL modern dataset shows that. Yeah, try to convince yourself it is European. Typical delusional European…oid!!! Get The Hell Outta Here with that nonsense. He! He! BTW – I don’t get my information from Blogs or Forums. I read authentic research papers by reputable geneticists ….or the not so reputable ones. He! He! Bloggers opinion is just like mine….opinions. I keep up to date as much as possible with the most recent papers. The old ones are just that outdated.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 19:45:37 GMT -5
Just to be sure you aren't blind. This data set is from HGDP. Read up on HGDP and get back to me. Maybe HGDP are sampling "coastal" pygmies (sic).
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 19:46:19 GMT -5
My advice to you is to broaden your horizon and knowledge. You know, get out of the bubble. If you read Norton’s PhD thesis(40pages) freely available on the web you would realize that she is of the firm belief that light skin originated in Africa. Shriver was/is Norton’s boss. He has a similar belief. But you would NOT know this. Because you spend too much time on racialist blogs/forums. Norton believe humans never got really deeply pigmented. Tishkoff believes the same thing. Rees, Mekova(?) speculated that Bantu South Africans are already lightening. The above paper seems to confirm that. You do know there were TWO streams of the so called Bantu expansion. But then again whom am I talking to …a narrow minded dummy? If you are serious about learning ..stick around.
Oh!- I can’t believe you are citing a 1998 enzyme study as proof of back-migration. Man..talk about delusional and an ostrich. I sense that you are parrot and do NOT understand the intricacies of what your are writing on….. Herodotus. You may be more capable of writing on Herodotus I heard he had African Enzymes.. He! He! He! Got any research papers on black Greek Anthropology and Genetics circa 1500BC. They are hard to come by.. Don’t get me started on the Greeks.
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-6300%281996%298:4%3C505::AID-AJHB11%3E3.0.CO;2-Q/abstract
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 13, 2013 19:46:39 GMT -5
I am done with you.......
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