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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 23, 2014 8:26:40 GMT -5
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage – Francesca Brisighelli- Dec 2012
In this long Paleolithic period, navigation across the Mediterranean was probably rare and some present-day islands were accessible across land bridges later covered by the rising sea [3]. During the Upper Paleolithic, from 36,000 to 10,000 ya, the icecap expansion of the Late Glacial Maximum (LGM) pushed southward groups of hunters living in Central European areas [1], and the Neanderthals gave way to the present species of man Homo sapiens sapiens during the final phases of the Wu¨rm glaciation.
Exchange of metals would determine the transformation of the first social organizations in ancient civilizations [4]. Sardinia, Sicily and Tuscany were among the first Italian territories to be occupied by humans due to their strategic location and the presence in their territories of important metal resources [5].
During all this period there were also increasing contacts with the Phoenician and Greek colonists: the former being largely present on the COASTS OF SARDINIA and WESTERN Sicily and the latter in Southern Italy
The record of all the populations that inhabited the Italian territory during (pre)-history is incomplete; many records were of uncertain location and/or ambiguous denomination [6].
The Phoenician colonization of the coasts of the Western Mediterranean were mainly limited in Italy to Sardinia and western Sicily and PRECEDED that of the Greeks. It was followed by Punic settlements (Trapani, Palermo, Cagliari) linked to the ancient Phoenician colony of Carthage. At the time of the Roman Empire, at least two non-Indo- European populations still inhabited Italy, namely, the Ligures, in the northwestern area, and the Etruscans with settlements located in areas far from the Etruria (Tuscany and High Latium), such as the Po Plain and the coast of Campania. At the same time, Sardinia experienced the flourishing of a non-Indo-European Nuragic civilization and, then, the Phoenician colonization.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 23, 2014 8:30:39 GMT -5
In the North, E3b1-M35 and J2-M172 show low frequencies but are more prevalent in the South, which has been interpreted to be a signal of the gene flow coming from Central European Neolithic farmers [17]. R1a1-M17 is rather rare, both in the North, where it probably originates from eastern Europe, and in the South, of possible Greek provenience [17].
The two Italian major islands, Sicily and Sardinia, show a different demographic history. The Y-chromosome variability of Sicily shares a common history with that of southern Italy, enriched by an additional Arab contribution, but also North African and Greek influences [18]. On the other hand, Sardinia has been considered to be a genetic outlier within Europe showing clear signals of founder effects;
Autosomal ancestry in Italy
A panel of 52 AIMs was genotyped in 435 Italian individuals in order to estimate the proportion of ancestry from a three-way differentiation: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe and Asia. Structure analyses allowed us to infer membership proportions in population samples, and these proportions can be graphically displayed, as in Figure 2. This analysis indicated that Italians have a BASAL PROPORTION of sub-Saharan ancestry that is higher (9.2%, onaverage) than other central or northern European populations (1.5%, on average). The amount of African ancestry in Italians is however more comparable to (but slightly higher than) the average in other Mediterranean countries (7.1%).
Some interesting features were also found for Ladin populations when examined at the haplotype level. For instance, the HVS-I profile G16129A C16192T A16270G T16304C was found in four Ladins from Val Badı´a; this profile belongs to haplogroup U5b3f [20]. In a large in-house database of worldwide profiles (.130,000 HVS-I segments), this sequence was only found sporadically in other Italian regions and in Spain (Catalonia, Galicia, and Ibiza in the Balearic Islands). U5b3f is a minor clade of U5b3, the only haplogroup reported to date that has been found to represent the glacial refuge zone in Northern Italy and a source population for
Note however, that at HIGHER LEVEL OF PHYLOGENETIC RESOLUTION, there are signals on the Y-chromosome of North African enrichment in South Italy [31].
As early as 1934, [72], Vere Gordon Childe suggested that the indigenous communities of hunters and gatherers of the Mesolithic European cultures were replaced by communities of farmers migrating to the North from the Middle East, a process that lasted for several generations.
The origin of sub-Saharan African mtDNAs in Europe (including Italian samples) has been recently investigated by Cerezo et al. [81]; the results indicate that a significant proportion of these lineages could have arrived in Italy more than 10,000 years ago; therefore, their presence in Europe does not necessarily date to the time of the Roman Empire, the Atlantic slave trade or to modern migration.
Finally, in agreement with uniparental markers, analysis of AIMs as carried out in the present study indicated that Italy shows
. This agrees with the recent findings of Cerezo et al. [82] based on the analysis of entire mtDNA genomes pointing to the arrival in ancient and historical times of sub-Saharan African people to the Mediterranean Europe, followed by admixture. The present study represents the largest meta-analysis carried out to date for the Italian peninsula. We observed that the Ychromosome
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 23, 2014 8:32:23 GMT -5
Africans did not only enter Iberia during pre-history. Italy also. They have always been entering Europe. Southern Europe is also their homeland.
They can lie , cheat, twist data but they cannot change geography. Southern Europe is a few miles from the coast of Africa. They cannot change that FACT. Africans have always entered Europe from those points. Always!
Don’t let modern geo-politics and boundaries influence your views. They was no “Europe” or Eurasian when AMH entered these lands of Arabia and Europe.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 24, 2014 21:36:34 GMT -5
The Most Advance civilization "in" Europe are Islands/Land off the African coast(s). Sicily, Carthage, Sardinia, Iberia etc  |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 24, 2014 21:39:05 GMT -5
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 24, 2014 21:42:12 GMT -5
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Post by anastasiaescrava on Sept 25, 2014 9:27:58 GMT -5
So you're saying that the indigenous North Africans made a home in Italy and the Isles of the Mediterranean, then the Phoenicians?
Interesting.
I already knew they had these admixtures, Thanks for the info.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 25, 2014 14:36:09 GMT -5
I am not sure what I am saying…as yet.
I only just started looking into this. ie the Phoenicians
I always heard that the Phoenicians roamed the Sea of the Medit and built these cities in Africa and Southern Europe. And I accepted it.
Reading this piece several light bulbs went off in my head. That, combined with the compulsive lying and deceptive nature of Europeans started me thinking and question this “premise”. I am hoping people with in-depth knowledge of the Phoenicians can talk me off the ledge. Tell me I am wacko and not a genius..
Ignoring genetics, my forte, let’s work backwards.
1. Agriculture first appeared in Sardinia prior to the European Mainland.
2. Agriculture first appeared in Sicily prior to the European Mainland
3. Agriculture first appeared in Greece prior to the European Mainland
4. When agriculture first appeared on the mainland of Europe it was on the Southern tip.
5. Agriculture appeared in Iberia Europe at approximately the same time as the Southern Tip of Italy. Which is unpredictable and unexpected ie the demic diffusion model. Europeans got around that bizarre observation by cooking up the “leap frog theory”. More BS and lies.
6. The most advance civilizations “in” Europe first appeared in the Islands. Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, Crete.
7. Mainland Greeks eventually conquered Crete and subdued the population after several hundred years.
8. Greeks have the highest frequency of African PN2 in Europe at >%25. Not to mention the Benin Sickle Markers etc
9. The most advance civilizations “in” Europe (lol) is found on the Islands…and far away from the Levant.(Phoenicians).
10. The Pheonicians supposedly traded and supposedly helped build Carthage and Iberian cities. To be frank, I am not sure if that is even possible ….today. The manpower and amount of ships it would take is mind boggling. And why do it?
11. When I first learned about the Etruscans I was puzzled on why the Turks or Phoenicians will leave their homeland and build such an advance civilization in Italy. But building in Italy was not what puzzled me. It was the location ie the Western side of Italy. Then it hit me like a lighten bolt. Two of the most advance “European” civilizations …are neighbors. Right next to each other. How could so many NOT made the connection. Turks and Phoenicians had nothing to do with Etruscia. To add fuel to the flame. The next advance civilization on the block is…..yes. Carthage.
This is not rocket science…someone …please talk me off the ledge.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 25, 2014 14:41:48 GMT -5
I am only speculating – but I believe these old white European archeologist from the 1800’s and 1900’s saw similarity in civilizations and cooked up that BS theory about Phoenicians from the Levant. Any place but Africa!!!!!. And we were taught that BS story over 200years now.
Someone. …correct me!
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Sept 25, 2014 15:02:54 GMT -5
Oh! I am not the first who proposed this. Sergi made that proposal over 100years ago. He did not have the genetic tools as today. He came to that conclusion by analyzing 1000’s of skulls from these ancient populations. . Read his book. It blew my mind when I first read it. Genetics is now proving he was right. I am as wacko as Sergi , Evans, Smith etc. So you're saying that the indigenous North Africans made a home in Italy and the Isles of the Mediterranean, then the Phoenicians? Interesting. I already knew they had these admixtures, Thanks for the info. |
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Post by anansi on Sept 25, 2014 22:17:43 GMT -5
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Oct 1, 2014 11:05:00 GMT -5
A few posters PMed me about this thread. For more details on the Phoenicians see the link Anansi posted. I am not as knowledgeable on the Phoenicians and other groups as Anansi and others. All I am saying here, is, that it does not make sense that a population from the Levant to sail to the ends of the earth to set up shop. Also the geographic proximity of Nuragic, Etruscans, Malta, Carthage and Iberia etc is more consistent with an indigenous population that expanded from a source from the Sahara building these civilizations. What gave it away was the location of Etruscia, on the Western end of Italy right across from Nuragic Sardinia and Carthage. So my question to the experts was what evidence is there that these we people from the Levant vs indigenous people as suggested by many other authors.
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Post by anansi on Oct 1, 2014 22:11:49 GMT -5
A few posters PMed me about this thread. For more details on the Phoenicians see the link Anansi posted. I am not as knowledgeable on the Phoenicians and other groups as Anansi and others. All I am saying here, is, that it does not make sense that a population from the Levant to sail to the ends of the earth to set up shop. Also the geographic proximity of Nuragic, Etruscans, Malta, Carthage and Iberia etc is more consistent with an indigenous population that expanded from a source from the Sahara building these civilizations. What gave it away was the location of Etruscia, on the Western end of Italy right across from Nuragic Sardinia and Carthage. So my question to the experts was what evidence is there that these we people from the Levant vs indigenous people as suggested by many other authors. Well it's not one vs the other what we have is groups of folks moving in on another,ok lets back up for a second in time,you remember our old friends the Natufians, they moved into the Levant from the Nile or the Sahara at a very early date taking with them their tool kits now the Levant was not empty they came upon folks who were not adapted to the tropics,they transform the economy of that land and beyond to become Anatolian and European first farmers. Take a look at your map see where you made your circle around Lebanon to the east,well expand that circle into Turkey or what was known as Anatolia,these folks perhaps somewhat modified by the time they got to the Greece and the north Med. You may wanna klik the above there is much to chew on.   I think this is one of ^ Mike's but the labeling is correct ,now for lurkers who might be confused as to what these early Anatolian folks looked like they were at even the relatively late date a black and brown skinned folk with pepper corn hair,it was folks like these that went on to farm Europe check link above, however the story does not end there,there were also later migration into the Levant and beyond possibly displaced by Narmer's conquest,this theory was postulated by Geneticist who found that Greeks carries significant amount of African dna mainly however that was an old study,what a later study found for the Minoan was that So my question is to the last part of the quote highlighted they reached the island around 9kyrs B.C from where?? for if they track them back into Anatolia then they are gonna run into the descendants of the Natufians. r |
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Post by northsiderasta on Oct 4, 2014 4:01:24 GMT -5
I read that some of the Phoenicians originated in Somalia moved to the levant & dna has
shown certain folks in the east mediterranean area have dna markers related to some
Somalis. Looking at Etruscan art the hair styles are loc/cornrows +their eyes have
a Khemetic appearance & epicanthic fold eye types. Certain euro researchers enjoy
remarking the mysterious origins of the Etruscans...Turkey?Bulgaria? The idea of
a Black African origin is too much for them to take.
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karem
Craftsperson
Posts: 74 
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Post by karem on Oct 4, 2014 4:38:59 GMT -5
I've also heard about there being a link with Somalis/Horn of Africa and Phoenicians - doesn't Herodotus say in the Histories that they come from the Eyretrean Sea, although he doesn't specify a side ? Some Lebanese, especially those leaning politically to the right/nationalism, have a combination of a dislike of Arabs and ingrained ways of thinking as a result of European colonialism so like to think that Phoenicians just sprung up out of nowhere - similar to how some Egyptian nationalists like to completely ignore the origins of their ancestors.
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