|
Post by zarahan on Feb 21, 2020 21:48:26 GMT -5
xyz says: FACTS based on DNA - STP and Cape Verde Jews are did NOT originate or are related to Portuguese Jews ....as what the history books tell you
I got no problem with this, which is why I say above "it could be no PORTUGUESE JEws at all, but there might have been other populations claiming/thought to be Jews that were transported thence, maybe from off North Africa, but classified as "Portuguese". These may not show the "typical" Portugese Jewish markers...
|
|
|
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Feb 21, 2020 22:50:35 GMT -5
Are you human or claim to be human but really some other primate faking it?
Have you any idea how distasteful it is when someone tells another they claim to be what they are rather than being what you want them to be as if its shameful to be what one is so they claim something else? 90 years ago Godbey told not to expect the Sao Tome Jews to fit Euro preconceived stereotypical notion of what a Jew must look like physically or genetically.
Meanwhile heritageless reggiNs obsess over an Egy they're no relation to, make blacks out of evry people on earth, and claim founding civs oceans away from and of no material culture resembling that where their ancestors last came from.
|
|
|
Post by ycoamigofull on Feb 23, 2020 21:27:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ycoamigofull on Feb 23, 2020 21:31:00 GMT -5
BTW. As I said. I am still on the fence about Africans in the America, Still not sure who is Mansa Musa. But there are facts that needs to be explained but there may a 1000 different "stories" that can be made up. Pick one. There seems to be an African presence in the Americas prior to Columbus. If Indonesian women can sale to Africa to meet black men. Why can't African men sail to the Americas to meetup with Native American women or African women sail to the Americas. Y'all deal in sheer speculation. Let's not get into any long spam, let's just focus strictly on technology. Maybe some African canoe fishermen somewhere were blown off course in a storm and maybe ended up out in the Atlantic, but African dugout canoes could not have made the long ocean voyage, because they were open river or close-in coastal type boats that could not carry many supplies in any case for a voyage to the Americas. The West Africans also did not have sailing technology, they were mostly relying on paddling the dugout canoes, which again pretty much kills any hopes of a long ocean trip. They could not have made the Cape Verde islands, because of the lack of technology, and the history proves it because islands were uninhabited before the Portuguese came. So just on the technology alone, the whole thing is a non-starter. I still have to see any real technology information put forward.
|
|
|
Post by kel on Feb 24, 2020 0:08:54 GMT -5
Thor Heyerdahl on his Ra II expedition of 1970, sailed from the west coast of Africa to Barbados in a papyrus reed boat. The Ra II crossed the 4,000 miles of ocean to Barbados in 57 days. He used boat building techniques of boat builders of Lake Chad. Lake Chad provides water to more than 30 million people living in the four countries surrounding it (Chad, Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria). Therefore: the technology existed. And the dugouts you talk about werent small craft. They could hold large amounts of men and material and were sometime outfitted with sails. The first hand story of Mansa Musa cannot be disregarded. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military_systems_to_1800#West_Africa
|
|
|
Post by ycoamigofull on Feb 24, 2020 21:50:25 GMT -5
Heyerdahl did not sail from West Africa. He sailed from Morocco, that's in North Africa, not West Africa, which is what we are talking about. The papyrus were obtained in Northeast Africa not West Africa. There is a difference. The fishermen there in any case have small reed boats using poles to propel them and they do not use sails. So that takes care of Northeast and North Africa. As for West Africa, all you have so far is big dugout canoes with people paddling down rivers. We are talking long open ocean voyages needing plenty of cargo space and sails.
|
|
|
Post by kel on Feb 25, 2020 0:06:05 GMT -5
You ignored the aforementioned points. 1. The technology existed to create craft large enough and strong enough to survive transatlantic travel. Lake Chad which used to be part of Mega Lake Chad ..a lake as large as a sea .. connects these different parts of Africa and then through to the river systems and then to the ocean. Cultural and technological transfer occurred. Furthermore, if u read the article on the 'dug out canoes' and maritime tech i learn that these were not always tiny craft. Large enough to hold 100+ armed men, material, living space, etc. Weather permitting they could have survived a cross atlantic journey. Sturdiness wouldnt necessarily be an issue. www.jstor.org/stable/180919?seq=1"The canoe, carved and usually also burnt-out from a single tree trunk, played a part in the history of the coastal, lagoon and river-side peoples of West Africa similar in importance to that of the horse in the savannah states. It ranged in size from the small fishing canoe to craft over 80 ft. in length and capable of carrying, in calm waters, 100 men or more. Sails were often used, in addition to paddles and punt poles. The builders were specialists, usually living in the forests, where the most suitable trees were found. On the coast the canoe was in use by the sixteenth century for trade with the European ships, for sea voyages which (according to an account of the intrepid sailors of the Gold Coast) may have covered hundreds of miles, and for fishing up to a distance of about 10 miles from the shore. Not all those living on or near the coast ventured on the sea, and the distinction between the seafaring and non-seafaring peoples of Guinea may be explained by geographical and historical factors..............."
|
|
|
Post by ycoamigofull on Feb 26, 2020 20:23:17 GMT -5
What do you mean? MegaLake Chad, they have info on the site here showing that was millennia ago. We are not talking millennia ago when the Sahara was green, we are talking 1200-1300 CE. Lake Chad used to be, but it ain't been so for several thousand years, so your datings are off, way off. Your article shows big canoes yes, but they all deal with calmer inland waters like rivers, not rough ocean travel. But even if they did ocean, notice how your article says 10 miles off the coast, which is not bad for coastal fishermen. But to get to South America you need to go hundreds of miles. And the hundreds of miles for West Africans just means a few hundred up and down the coast, 10 miles out yes, but still close to shore. So nothing you have linked up to shows any long haul ocean technology.
|
|
|
Post by zarahan on Mar 1, 2020 18:33:14 GMT -5
What do you mean? MegaLake Chad, they have info on the site here showing that was millennia ago. We are not talking millennia ago when the Sahara was green, we are talking 1200-1300 CE. Lake Chad used to be, but it ain't been so for several thousand years, so your datings are off, way off. Your article shows big canoes yes, but they all deal with calmer inland waters like rivers, not rough ocean travel. But even if they did ocean, notice how your article says 10 miles off the coast, which is not bad for coastal fishermen. But to get to South America you need to go hundreds of miles. And the hundreds of miles for West Africans just means a few hundred up and down the coast, 10 miles out yes, but still close to shore. So nothing you have linked up to shows any long haul ocean technology. I am still on the fence myself as to pre-columbian voyages from Africa at a PARTICULAR time and place argued by some proponents, but I think such voyages were possible using local tech. You are saying that West Africans did not have vessels of enough capacity, nor did they have sails so they could not have made the ocean voyage to the Caribbean and South America. Both these claims have flaws. West Africans did have the technology to do it. For one thing, their 30-80 ton canoe technology would suffice. As already shown above they had vessels with enough capacity to carry men and material- canoes that could carry over 100 men and cargo loads of up to 30 tons or more. The Songhai “kanta” boats could haul 50-80 ton loadouts. QUOTE: ”The Songhai "kanta" could carry up to 30 tons of goods, i.e. the load capacity of 1,000 men, 200 camels, 300 cattle or a flotilla of 20 regular canoes (Mauny, 1961). Some of these boats had an even greater load capacity of 50 to 80 tons (Tvmowski, 1967).”-- Inge Tvedten, Bjorn Hersoug. 1992.Fishing for Development: Small-scale Fisheries in Africa, pg 57 Note that the kanta above could piggyback 20 smaller canoes into its frame- boats hauling boats, and some up to 1000 men or 300 head of cattle. All of these loadouts were needed by the Songhai Empire when it was on war campaigns, so the West Africans did not have to reinvent the wheel as to big boats. You further object that canoes could not have done ocean work. But this too seems shaky. Canoes of dugout style were seen by early Europeans travelers up to 10 miles off the coast. That there were other voyages farther afield is possible given that the tech was in place locally by an empire that could fund the necessary men and material. So canoes are not “unsuitable.” In fact similar Polynesian and Carib dugout canoes covered hundreds or even thousands of miles of ocean. You do not need to build some kind of European style boat for ocean voyaging. Third, though sails are not seen everywhere, some WEst African groups used sails. QUOTE: “The Ethnographical Department of the National Museum of Denmark at Copenhagen has (in room 65) a boat collected, apparently early in the nineteenth century, on the Gold Coast. According to the catalogue, the boat, the middle part of which is missing, is equipped with paddles, mast and a mat sail.” and ” The war canoes with which Kosoko, the exiled Oba of Lagos, attacked across the lagoon towards his former capital in 1853, were apparently of two types, some being 80 ft. in length and carrying 'upwards of a hundred men', while others carried thirty to forty men each.22 On the Upper Niger, where there were few large trees, tree trunks were occasionally joined by cords end-to-end (rather than as a catamaran).23 The usual method of propulsion for the canoes was by paddles and, in shallow lagoon and river-water, by punting. Barbot [mid-late 1600s] refers to the use of sails by the natives of Axim and Winneba, and implies their use also off the Senegal coast.” -- The Canoe in West African History, Robert Smith. The Journal of African History, Vol. 11, No. 4, (1970), pp. 515-533 ====================================== ========================== Fourth, let’s throw out sails for a moment. Who says you need sails to go long ocean distances?Some of the great regional ocean voyagers, the Caribs and Arawaks of the Caribbean ranged from Cuba to the Guianas on the South American coast, and into the islands of the Caribbean from Jamaica, to Puerto Rico, to Trinidad, and they did not have sails, and they used big dugout canoes and rafts made of the same wood. This is a range of roughly some 2,000 miles at the extremities. Sails are helpful but not necessary. As the research link below shows, most Caribs for example are not reported as using sails when first encountered by the Spanish. Almost all early accounts fail to mention sails though by contrast they note in detail the efficiency of Carib paddle propulsion, deemed more versatile than European oars. Sails were not unknown among some groups but many preferred to use paddles. It is only after the coming of the Europeans that sails seem to have been put into use in a substantial way. QUOTE: “Canoes carry many oarsmen and Columbus had reported a canoe with 70-80 oarsmen (Navarrete, 1874: 335). Other reports suggest that canoes holding 40-50 oarsmen were not uncommon. While Loven has very few favorable remarks concerning the design of canoes, he does comment favorably on the construction of paddles by pins to the sides of canoes (like European oars), but were dipped into the water and pulled backwards as if digging (Las Casas, 1951: 206). Paddlers worked in shifts, perhaps 35 at a time, while other men squatted on the floor of the boat. Labat noted that paddlers occupied less space than oars and oarsmen in the European manner, and made it possible for a canoe to carry twice as many people. Paddles were more flexible than oars and afforded considerable advantage when flowing with the current and even greater advantage when pushing against it. Aboriginal canoes were thus able to attain much greater speeds than any known European race boats of the time.
THE PRESENCE OF SAILS?
The next issue - and a most vital one for the concerns of this Congress - is whether or not pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Caribbean used sails on their canoes. Loven (1935: 414) is unambiguous in stating his opinion that "for a race that, as a matter of fact, had no sails, the length of their voyages is indeed astonishing." McKusick (1960: 5) also concludes that Caribbean aborigines adopted sails from the Europeans, and cites the case of the shipwrecked Frior Blasius who claimed to have introduced sails to the Carib of Dominica in 1605. .. Roberts and Shackleton (1983: 18) are less dogmatic, concluding that "while some sixteenth century accounts report native vessels with sails, there is insufficient evidence."
After 1650, however, the evidence becomes conclusive. Virtually all later chroniclers mention the island-Carib as having sails (Du Tertre, 1667; Rochefort, 1658; Labat, 1722).2 I think it likely that the early Spanish chroniclers - who took such pains describing aboriginal paddles - would have made mention of sails prior to 1650: especially if the largest and most impressive canoes were so equipped. As a practical matter, it would seem that it would have been advantageous for island-Arawak's to use sails if they did indeed possess them - rather then carry provisions for 60-80 paddlers. There are a number of other cultures in the ethnographic record where sails cannot be traces prior to Europeans; for example, the Micmacs of New England (Adney and Chapelle, 1964: 65-69). In the case of the Asiatic and Alasakan umiak, umiaks in the Eastern region were paddled, rowed, or sailed, while in the Western regions they were paddled only (ibid., pp. 182). Sails appear to have been aboriginal inventions in Oceania (Hadden and Harnell, 1936), but do not seem to have been known universally in the Baltic (Taylor, 1980). There are cases where groups were aware of sail technology, but used it seldom if at all (Lothrop, 1932; Heizer, 1941).” Impressions Of Aboriginal Technology- The Caribbean Canoe- Stephen Glazier Proceedings of the Thirteenth International Congress for Caribbean Archaeology, 1991 149-161 ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/AA/00/06/19/61/00410/13-11.pdf---------------------------------------------- ------------------------ Rafts made of light wood too can be propelled by the wind in the proper circumstances without needing any sails- QUOTE: “‘Although the Peruvians did use rafts to voyage off their coast long before the white men ever came, such rafts did not use sails, but were propelled by paddles.’ Later, other authors have concluded that a South American vessel capable of reaching East Polynesia could have existed (e.g. Anderson 2006), and that prehistoric voyaging in any direction in the Pacific was probably relying on fair winds, some paddling and some drifting (Anderson et al. 2006)…” Anderson (2002:13–19) has most recently summarised the minimalist case. Along with many commentators, he favours bamboo rafts for their buoyancy, speed and ease of construction, and light displacement which would allow such a craft to be propelled by wind, even without sails.” -- Islands of Inquiry: Colonisation, Seafaring and the Archaeology of Maritime Archaelogy 2008. press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p26551/pdf/book.pdfSo, as can be seen, sails are not needed for long distance ocean travel. The Caribs covered hundreds upon hundreds of miles without them. Nor is this the case only with the Caribs or other Indians. Similar calculations occurred in Polynesia, home to ocean spanning navigators. They too used long dugout canoes, and while they invented the sail independently and used sails frequently, on some ocean voyages they did not use sails. In fact they had a mix of things going on- canoes with and without sails, and freight rafts with and without sails. QUOTE: “Ocean transport was diverse and sophisticated, ranging from the multiple-hulled lakatoi of the Papuan Gulf and the elaborate double-hulled chiefly voyaging and war canoes of Polynesia and Micronesia to smaller fishing and racing outrigger canoes and freight rafts, with and without sails. The vessels enabled the migration to and settlement of vast stretches of the Pacific Ocean (Haddon & Hornell 1975). “ --Science of Pacific Island Peoples: Fauna, flora, food and medicine. 1994. Edited by R. J. Morrison, Paul A. Geraghty, Linda Crowl. p164 ================= ================= Some of the vessels for long ocean travel were not even of solid wood but woven grass-type stems- like flax- as in the Chatam Islands near New Zealand- some 400-500 miles away- yet islanders made the ocean voyage without sails in flimsy "basket boats" that needed sea kelp type bladders to stay afloat. QUOTE: “There was no timber on the islands fit for making canoes, and so they constructed extraordinary-looking vessels from the flower-stems of the New Zealand flax.. Shaped somewhat like a canoe, with high bow and stern, the craft was just like a large crate through which the water freely washed, but which was kept afloat by the buoyancy of the flax-stems of which it was composed, and by inflated bladders of sea-kelp placed within its basket-work frame. Never was there a vessel of such apparent frailty, yet in these weak boats or rafts the natives dared the mighty rollers of the South Pacific, often fifteen or twenty miles away from the main land. Some of these raft-canoes (wakapahi) were large enough to carry sixty or seventy people; they were without sails, but were propelled with paddles. Strange to say, they used the paddle in a way no other people of their race (or in the same barbaric stage otherwise) ever did, they used a tholepin, and the paddle was treated as an oar, the back of the rower being turned to his destination, European-fashion. In their canoes they carried fishing nets of different sizes, but had difficulty in the conveyance of fresh water, for, not having any gourd plants, they were without the useful calabash, so manufactured a horn-shaped vessel of green flax-leaves in which to carry their drinking-water." --The Maori Race, Edward Tregear, 1904 ========================================= ================ So: 1) Suitable canoe vessels were in place 2) Large cargo canoe capacity was in place- between 30 and 80 tons per boat 3) A polity or polities (Malian zone era) capable of mobilizing large men and material resources was in place 4) Some evidence of sails and ocean voyaging is in place 5) Sails are not needed for long voyages as evidenced by Carib and Polynesian long distance examples
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Mar 2, 2020 6:37:02 GMT -5
Take note of the high prow and stern above, necessary for open seas travel, and while I do not believe south of the Savannah country folks made use of the astrolabe , Savannah folks certainly did..However, circumstantial evidence, even good ones is not good enough.
|
|
|
Post by ycoamigofull on Mar 2, 2020 21:03:55 GMT -5
Take note of the high prow and stern above, necessary for open seas travel, and while I do not believe south of the Savannah country folks made use of the astrolabe , Savannah folks certainly did..However, circumstantial evidence, even good ones is not good enough. Exactly, its all interesting but circumstantial evidence, with no direct proof of any voyages. The astrolabes too knocks Zarahans 'local tech' spiel out of the window for it they were using the astrolabes then they were using foreign Arab derived technology not homegrown African.
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Mar 2, 2020 23:52:51 GMT -5
Take note of the high prow and stern above, necessary for open seas travel, and while I do not believe south of the Savannah country folks made use of the astrolabe , Savannah folks certainly did..However, circumstantial evidence, even good ones is not good enough. Exactly, its all interesting but circumstantial evidence, with no direct proof of any voyages. The astrolabes too knocks Zarahans 'local tech' spiel out of the window for it they were using the astrolabes then they were using foreign Arab derived technology not homegrown African. Actually the astrolabe is ultimately Hellenistic, but it goes to show that any great metropolitan civilization with far reaching contacts, necessarily give and borrow technology and ideas from one another, of which the Savanna folks certainly were.
|
|
|
Post by zarahan on Mar 3, 2020 21:34:58 GMT -5
Take note of the high prow and stern above, necessary for open seas travel, and while I do not believe south of the Savannah country folks made use of the astrolabe , Savannah folks certainly did..However, circumstantial evidence, even good ones is not good enough. Exactly, its all interesting but circumstantial evidence, with no direct proof of any voyages. The astrolabes too knocks Zarahans 'local tech' spiel out of the window for it they were using the astrolabes then they were using foreign Arab derived technology not homegrown African. I am still on the fence as to specific claims and colonization arguments, etc, but only looking at the TECHNICAL voyaging aspects here at present and I believe that the data shows that local tech was in place that could have gotten the job done. The presence of deep-pocketed funders and organizers among the Mali royalty adds to the case, for only such would provide mobilization of the necessary men and material, just as Columbus relied on the deep-pockets of his sponsors, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain. it they were using the astrolabes then they were using foreign Arab derived technology not homegrown African.Your argument here seems weak and seems a double standard. For one thing, Mali was a part of the Islamic culture zone. The emperors at any time could dial up Islamic learning. If they wanted astrolabes, or Arab-modified lateen sails that could help power a long ocean voyage, Islamic merchants scribes, or scholars were in the royal court that could deliver, or advise. So ON TOP OF the local tech they had Islamic learning on tap as well. This fact along puts a spike on claims that Africans did not have the knowledge or resources available. Second as Anansi says above all growing civilizations borrow and adapt from others. How come its a "problem" for some when Africans likewise borrow and adapt tech from elsewhere? Europeans copy, borrow or adapt ideas from non Euros all the time. Even their majority religion is not "homegrown" but based on ideas developed by non-European people in the sub-tropics. Those who try to poo-poo or downplay Africans on the "borrow and adapt" score are among the biggest hypocrites. Columbus would not have done anything if it wasn't for "foreign" or "outside" NON European technology. --The alphabet used for his logbooks and writing- derived foundationally from people in Africa adapting Egyptian scripts --The numbers for his calculations- from non European sources like Indian derived or adapted "Arabic" numerals --The firearms for his armed men- from Asia, China --The gunpowder for his ships guns and muskets- from Asia- China --The rudder to steer his ships- from Asia, China --The compass for navigation- from Asia, China --The paper and printing for his later reports- derived from Asiatic sources --The wheat and domesticated animals for food- derived from plants and animals first domesticated outside Europe --The religion for his prayers and rituals upon arriving- from NON Europeans people in the sub-tropics Without such "outside" NON European technology Columbus and his whole project would have been dead in the water. As one conservative scholar has to admit: " ..imports included many things that originated in Asia— paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, rudders, stirrups, spaghetti, chess, and a numbering system that Europeans called Arabic numerals (because they first saw these numerals in use among the Arabs, even though the numerals actually originated in India). All these things created in Asia became part of the cultural universe of Europeans. Much knowledge from the Middle East and North Africa also found its way into Europe, including the agricultural and architectural advances that the North African Moors brought with them when they invaded and conquered Spain. When the British confronted the Iroquois on the east coast of North America, the mental and material resources at the disposal of these two races were by no means confined to what they had each developed themselves.
The British had been able to navigate across the Atlantic, in the first place, by using the compass invented in China, doing mathematical calculations with a numbering system from India, steering with rudders invented in China, writing on paper invented in China, using letters created by the Romans, and ultimately prevailing in combat using gunpowder, also invented in China." --Thomas Sowell. 2015. Wealth, Poverty and Politics_ An International Perspective. p 43
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Mar 4, 2020 10:23:48 GMT -5
It's not about an "if", it's a definitive Yes!!..they made use of the Astrolabe , that was one of the technologies used to cris cross the desert, the others rest on local knowledge of water holes or oasis and star gazing, the travelers likened the crossings to the sea, hence the term Sahel, meaning coast. The Fulani for whatever reason thought highly of it to near modern times. The Fulani Conquest of Spain egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2798/fulani-conquest-spain?page=1Go here^^
|
|
|
Post by Shadow on Mar 5, 2020 10:52:57 GMT -5
That's interesting because I always thought that the astrolabe was an African derived invention. "Not only does North Africa have a strong tradition of making beautiful and ingenious astrolabes, the origins of the instrument may also be described as African. Although the invention of the astrolabe cannot be precisely located, it was the Greek astronomer Hipparchus, reportedly working in the Egyptian port of Alexandria in the second century BC, who developed the projection on which the instrument is based. Further, it was Claudius Ptolemy, some 300 years later, who provided the first thorough treatise on this projection and who wrote as though he had in mind a physical astrolabe. Two centuries later, again in Alexandria, Theon of Alexandria wrote the first complete work on astrolabes, treating both the underlying mathematics, that is, the theory of stereographic projection, and the construction of the physical instrument. To this he appended a long section on how to use an astrolabe." "These pioneering astrolabists were closely linked to Africa: Hipparchus worked in Alexandria, while Ptolemy and Theon were born, lived and died in Egypt." Source: www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/africa/
|
|