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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 27, 2010 19:48:06 GMT -5
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Post by homeylu on Apr 28, 2010 9:02:02 GMT -5
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river. As a result, the Garamante were not Berber speaking people. They probably spoke a Mande language. The Garamante were an agropastoral people--not nomads. Do you have any other evidence, besides linguistics that you are basing these claims on. I.E. Archaeology,anthropology, genetic studies, etc., using a multi-disciplinary approach always tends to work best, IMO. |
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Post by Charlie Bass on Apr 28, 2010 12:16:41 GMT -5
The ancient empire of Ghana was located in West Africa in the area of Mauritania and the Garamantes' empire was located in Libya in the Fezzan, on which evidence are you basing your assertions Clyde? From the available evidence I've seen the Garamantes were the ancestors of Tuaregs or more likely the Tibbu of the Fezzan in Southern Libya, there are no Mande speaking peoples in the Fezzan. |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 28, 2010 13:34:36 GMT -5
The ancient empire of Ghana was located in West Africa in the area of Mauritania and the Garamantes' empire was located in Libya in the Fezzan, on which evidence are you basing your assertions Clyde? From the available evidence I've seen the Garamantes were the ancestors of Tuaregs or more likely the Tibbu of the Fezzan in Southern Libya, there are no Mande speaking peoples in the Fezzan. I base my conclusion on 1) archaeological 2) Textual evidence 3) linguistic 4) epigraphic See: olmec98.net/man1.htmand olmec98.net/mandeWriting.pdfNow tell me what evidence you have supporting a Berber origin for the Garamante, when Diop has pointed out that the traditions of the Berber's support a recent entrance into Africa, from Arabia/Yemen. . |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 28, 2010 13:38:14 GMT -5
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river. As a result, the Garamante were not Berber speaking people. They probably spoke a Mande language. The Garamante were an agropastoral people--not nomads. Do you have any other evidence, besides linguistics that you are basing these claims on. I.E. Archaeology,anthropology, genetic studies, etc., using a multi-disciplinary approach always tends to work best, IMO. Yes. I support my conclusions with epigraphic, textual, archaeological and anthropological research. Lets not forget Diop has already shown that the Berber origin traditions claim a recent Yemeni origin. Also, please correct if I am wrong, but I don't believe that genomic material has been extracted from Garamantian skeletons yet. Check out this site if you want to learn about the mande expansion from Nubia and the Fezzan into West Africa olmec98.net/man1.htmAlso check out my paper in Blacks in Science beginning page 210 books.google.com/books?id=ea-dgkryq7AC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=relations+between+Dar+Tichitt+and+Fezzan&source=bl&ots=GRQcxivIJW&sig=fOoIlwx0IXzH_hKCYafL9H5sgjM&hl=en&ei=MYHYS8H0JsH98AbLl4TfBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=falseor olmec98.net/mandeWriting.pdfEnjoy . |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 28, 2010 13:54:35 GMT -5
In that instance Diop was speaking to the origins of the Beydani Moors of Mauritania not of the 'Berbers.' The Zenaga (Berbers) of Mauritania are vassals of the Yemeni Arab ruling class Beydani Moors. ... Diop has already shown that the Berber origin traditions claim a recent Yemeni origin. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 28, 2010 14:10:28 GMT -5
Some archaeologists/historians have interpreted the so-called 'Libyco-Berbers' in contact with the earlier civilization of Dhar Tichitt -- forerunner to Wagadu (old Ghana) -- to have been Garamantes. Ancient pre-Islam era trade from the Aukar/Tagant, to the Joliba's (Niger's) parabola to Air and on to the north, seems to have been under Garamante control at least in its last legs. Garamante for sure were the last leg in the north bound trade from Tibesti and from pre-Kanem. Graves (1955) wrote well before 1980 and old ideas like the Joliba being the Gir of the Greco-Latin writers are unfounded. Froebenius wanted to see a short form of Garamante in the mention of the city Jerra (first of the four names of Wagadu) in the Dausi epic, also that the Fasa of could be a short form for Fezzan peoples. In Greek mythology Garamas, aka Amphithemis, is the son of a Minoan woman named Akakallis in the days of the Argonauts who settled in Libya . Garamante most likely derives from the name of their later capital city Garama, today's Jerma. The ancient empire of Ghana was located in West Africa in the area of Mauritania and the Garamantes' empire was located in Libya in the Fezzan, on which evidence are you basing your assertions Clyde? From the available evidence I've seen the Garamantes were the ancestors of Tuaregs or more likely the Tibbu of the Fezzan in Southern Libya, there are no Mande speaking peoples in the Fezzan. |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 28, 2010 21:36:49 GMT -5
Some archaeologists/historians have interpreted the so-called 'Libyco-Berbers' in contact with the earlier civilization of Dhar Tichitt -- forerunner to Wagadu (old Ghana) -- to have been Garamantes. Ancient pre-Islam era trade from the Aukar/Tagant, to the Joliba's (Niger's) parabola to Air and on to the north, seems to have been under Garamante control at least in its last legs. Garamante for sure were the last leg in the north bound trade from Tibesti and from pre-Kanem. Graves (1955) wrote well before 1980 and old ideas like the Joliba being the Gir of the Greco-Latin writers are unfounded. Froebenius wanted to see a short form of Garamante in the mention of the city Jerra (first of the four names of Wagadu) in the Dausi epic, also that the Fasa of could be a short form for Fezzan peoples. In Greek mythology Garamas, aka Amphithemis, is the son of a Minoan woman named Akakallis in the days of the Argonauts who settled in Libya . Garamante most likely derives from the name of their later capital city Garama, today's Jerma. I don't disagree with the extent of Garamante power since they spoke a Mande language. There is nothing in what you wrote that denies a Mande origin for this group. In Greek text the Garamante did not come from Crete they came from the Fezzan (Libya) and settled Crete. The chariot routes went from the Fezzan to Dar Tichitt. The trade went both ways so how can you claim that it was solely under Garamante control. Garamante probably ="Dry land Mande". The association of Jara and Gara is not a bad match since g and j are interchangeble in Mande languages e.g., jo and gyo 'religious cult association'. The only way we can explain Mante, is that it is an ethononym 'Mande'. . |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 28, 2010 22:12:19 GMT -5
In that instance Diop was speaking to the origins of the Beydani Moors of Mauritania not of the 'Berbers.' The Zenaga (Berbers) of Mauritania are vassals of the Yemeni Arab ruling class Beydani Moors. ... Diop has already shown that the Berber origin traditions claim a recent Yemeni origin. Correct he claimed that the Berbers were descendants of the Vandals and maybe People of the Sea. . |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 29, 2010 14:22:28 GMT -5
I didn't write anything about Mande origins for the Garamante. I wrote what I wrote and I need now to write a little more on the word Garamas because there was an elder Garamas who was not the same as Amphethemis. That Garamas was mythologically ancestral to the Nasamones. When I find what I posted on ES about the Libyans own Garamas in Graves I will transfer it here. Garamante controlled trade from the moment it entered the Sahara until it left. Of course they had noting to do with the trade either south or north of Sahara. There was no back and forth trade between polities south of Sahara and north of Sahara unless it was in Garamante hands. Neither the Sahel folk nor the Sahel folk did direct transSahara trade. I don't disagree with the extent of Garamante power since they spoke a Mande language. There is nothing in what you wrote that denies a Mande origin for this group. In Greek text the Garamante did not come from Crete they came from the Fezzan (Libya) and settled Crete. The chariot routes went from the Fezzan to Dar Tichitt. The trade went both ways so how can you claim that it was solely under Garamante control. Garamante probably ="Dry land Mande". . |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 29, 2010 14:56:58 GMT -5
I didn't write anything about Mande origins for the Garamante. I wrote what I wrote and I need now to write a little more on the word Garamas because there was an elder Garamas who was not the same as Amphethemis. That Garamas was mythologically ancestral to the Nasamones. When I find what I posted on ES about the Libyans own Garamas in Graves I will transfer it here. Garamante controlled trade from the moment it entered the Sahara until it left. Of course they had noting to do with the trade either south or north of Sahara. There was no back and forth trade between polities south of Sahara and north of Sahara unless it was in Garamante hands. Neither the Sahel folk nor the Sahel folk did direct transSahara trade. I don't disagree with the extent of Garamante power since they spoke a Mande language. There is nothing in what you wrote that denies a Mande origin for this group. In Greek text the Garamante did not come from Crete they came from the Fezzan (Libya) and settled Crete. The chariot routes went from the Fezzan to Dar Tichitt. The trade went both ways so how can you claim that it was solely under Garamante control. Garamante probably ="Dry land Mande". . This view that the trade was entirely in Garamante hands is not supported by the archaeology. It is clear that chariots were used as a means of transportation by many people along the chariot routes from Dar Tichitt to the Fezzan. What is your evidence that the trade was solely in Garamante hands? . |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 29, 2010 15:48:19 GMT -5
See
R. C. C. Law
The Garamantes and Trans-Saharan Enterprise in Classical Times
in
Journal of African History, VIII, 2 (1967), pp. 181–200
Victor Paul Borg
Garamantes masters of the Sahara
in
Geographical, August 1, 2007
Craig A. Lockard
Societies, Networks, and Transitions: A Global History
Harcourt: Houghton Mifflin (2007)
vol 1, p 235
for the Garamante confederation spanning
SW Libya
SE Algeria
N Niger.
This is besides their trade with the Lake Tschad area
and the trade through Darfur to Meroe via the Tibesti.
Who are the various peoples you propose as the agents
of transSahara trade between ~550 BCE and ~550 CE?
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 29, 2010 21:33:33 GMT -5
See R. C. C. Law
The Garamantes and Trans-Saharan Enterprise in Classical Timesin Journal of African History, VIII, 2 (1967), pp. 181–200 Victor Paul Borg Garamantes masters of the Saharain Geographical, August 1, 2007 Craig A. Lockard
Societies, Networks, and Transitions: A Global HistoryHarcourt: Houghton Mifflin (2007) vol 1, p 235 for the Garamante confederation spanning SW Libya SE Algeria N Niger. This is besides their trade with the Lake Tschad area and the trade through Darfur to Meroe via the Tibesti. Who are the various peoples you propose as the agents of transSahara trade between ~550 BCE and ~550 CE? Lockard makes it clear that there may have been a Garamante confederation. If this confederation existed it would have included diverse people, especially the Mande since they were spread from Niger Valley to the Fezzan. Lockard makes it clear that while the Garamante controlled the salt trade, the Sudani also exported goods. Goods which the Garamante would obtained from other parts of Africa. The Garamante control of the desert regions ia probably they got their name Gara (dry land)+Mante (Mande). books.google.com/books?id=yJPlCpzOY_QC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=garamante+confederation&source=bl&ots=rh53yoegsL&sig=_0hbcMhx0uN5JaQKW8CPwpGlfyg&hl=en&ei=jy_aS_C1HIaENvPqqVM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=garamante%20confederation&f=false. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 30, 2010 9:32:11 GMT -5
It doesn't appear that the Garama ever called themselves Garamante. We just have Garama/Djerma as names used in the region itself. Greek mythology gives them an eponymous ancestor Garamas. The Greeks say that Libyans claimed Garamas to be the first human to issue from Gaea. All this being so, the word Garamante seems to be made up of Garama + nte. The nte part doesn't seem to be from those people themselves and thus may not be African in source. Garamantes populi Africae prope Cyrenas
inhabitantes, a Garamante rege Apollinis
filio nominati, qui ibi ex suo nomine Garama
oppidum condidit.
Isidori Hispalensis Episcopi
Etymologiarum sive Originum
9.2.125 The Garama in the above citation is the guy who's mum was Akakallis not the one who was born of sleeping Gaea. |
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 30, 2010 12:12:17 GMT -5
It doesn't appear that the Garama ever called themselves Garamante. We just have Garama/Djerma as names used in the region itself. Greek mythology gives them an eponymous ancestor Garamas. The Greeks say that Libyans claimed Garamas to be the first human to issue from Gaea. All this being so, the word Garamante seems to be made up of Garama + nte. The nte part doesn't seem to be from those people themselves and thus may not be African in source. Garamantes populi Africae prope Cyrenas
inhabitantes, a Garamante rege Apollinis
filio nominati, qui ibi ex suo nomine Garama
oppidum condidit.
Isidori Hispalensis Episcopi
Etymologiarum sive Originum
9.2.125 The Garama in the above citation is the guy who's mum was Akakallis not the one who was born of sleeping Gaea. Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes". See: www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200403/libya.s.forgotten.desert.kingdom.htm. |
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