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Post by Charlie Bass on May 4, 2010 10:22:47 GMT -5
The name Garamante indicates no more affinity to the Mande language than the Sudanese Dinka to the Mandinka language. Dinka don't speak a Mandinka language and I've seen no evidence that Garamantes spoke a Mande language, it takes more than similar or half way similar sound names to present evidence of a bonafide linguistic link.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 4, 2010 10:51:05 GMT -5
One myth has it that Garamas descends from the sun god Apollon and the princess Akakalis daughter of king Minos of Crete. Her father saw reason to banish her and so sent her off to Libya. Akakallis, whom once Minos drove from home to dwell in Libya, his own daughter, when she was bearing the gods' heavy load; and she bare to Phoibos a glorious son, whom they call Amphithemis and Garamas. And Amphithemis wedded a Tritonian nymph; and she bare to him Nasamon and strong Kaphauros.
Apollonius Rhodius
Argonautica 4.1490
So, one may reject it but one cannot say that Greek myth does not have this dissenting opinion that there was a move from Crete to Libya and Garamantes, if indeed from Garamas, derive from it. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 4, 2010 11:06:46 GMT -5
Now let's see what Robert Graves directly says in his The Greek Myths. THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH
At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos
and bore her son Uranus as she slept.
. . .
b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed
giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus.
. . .
c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the
Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he
offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.
. . . .
1. This patriarchal myth of Uranus gained official acceptance
under the Olympian religious system.
...
Briareus ('strong') was also called Aegaeon, and his people may
therefore be the Libyo-Thracians, whose Goat-goddess Aegis gave
her name to the Aegean Sea.
Cottus was the eponymous ancestor of the Cottians who worshipped
the orgiastic Cotytto, and spread her worship from Thrace through
out North-western Europe. These tribes are described as 'hundred
handed', perhaps because their priestesses were organized in
colleges of fifty, like the Danaids and Nereids; ...
. . .
. . . .
3. Garamas is the eponymous ancestor of the Libyan Garamantians
who occupied the Oasis of Djado, south of the Fezzan, and were
conquered by the Roman general Balbus in 19 B.C. They are said
to have been of Cushite-Berber stock, and in the second century
A.D. were subdued by the matrilineal Lemta Berbers. Later they
fused with the Negro aboriginals on the south bank of the Upper
Niger, and adopted their language.
They survive today in a single village under the name of Koromantse.
Garamante is derived from the words gara man te meaning 'Gara state
people'.
Gara seems to be the goddess Ker, or Q're, or Car, who gave her
name to the Carians, amog other people, and was associated with
apiculture. Esculent acorns, a stape food of the ancient world
before the introduction of [grains], grew in Libya; and the
Garamantian settlement of Ammon was joined with the Northern
Greek settlement of Dodona in a religious league which, according
to Sir Flinders Petrie, may have originated as early as the third
millenium B.C.
Both places had an ancient oak-oracle. Herodotus describes
the Garamantians as a peaceable but very powerful people,
who cultivate the date-palm, grow [grain], and herd cattle.
Robert Graves
The Greek Myths
New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959 (edition)
vol. 1 pp. 31-33
By the Garamantes reckoning Garamas was the first human. So, by their account, they are the autochthones not settlers. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 4, 2010 11:29:55 GMT -5
Graves says
1. Garamantes are of Cushite and Berber ancestry
2. Garamantes were subdued by the Lemta in the 2nd century
3. Garamantes later moved to the Upper Niger river
4. Garamantes married with and learned the language of the people there
He breakes Garamante down into gara-man-te meaning
Gara state people (echoing they were named after their
polity, i.e., Garama -- Gara state, and that te is a suffix).
Graves leads us to suppose Garamantes originally spoke
either a Cushite and/or 'Berber' language which sometime
after the 2nd century they abandoned for a language
spoken in the Upper Niger Valley.
He thinks the last remnant of the Garamante are still found
in a village named Koromantse. Koromantse is Koromantee
a habitation and ethny of Akan speakers.
I don't see in The Greek Myths where Graves intimates
Garamantes settled Crete. What he does is mentions the
connection between the oracles of Ammon (Siwa) and
Dodona, a connection spoken of by Herodotus.
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Post by clydewin98 on May 4, 2010 12:11:33 GMT -5
The name Garamante indicates no more affinity to the Mande language than the Sudanese Dinka to the Mandinka language. Dinka don't speak a Mandinka language and I've seen no evidence that Garamantes spoke a Mande language, it takes more than similar or half way similar sound names to present evidence of a bonafide linguistic link. @ Khafre: I have taught linguistics for years at the University level. Please explain to us how my use of comparative linguistic methods, does not show "a bonafide linguistic link" between Mande and Keftiu (Garamante of Crete names). Give us this analysis using the language and methods associated with historical and comparative linguistic methods that you base your conclusions. . |
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Post by Charlie Bass on May 4, 2010 13:25:51 GMT -5
The name Garamante indicates no more affinity to the Mande language than the Sudanese Dinka to the Mandinka language. Dinka don't speak a Mandinka language and I've seen no evidence that Garamantes spoke a Mande language, it takes more than similar or half way similar sound names to present evidence of a bonafide linguistic link. @ Khafre: I have taught linguistics for years at the University level. Please explain to us how my use of comparative linguistic methods, does not show "a bonafide linguistic link" between Mande and Keftiu (Garamante of Crete names). Give us this analysis using the language and methods associated with historical and comparative linguistic methods that you base your conclusions. . Would you mind posting more evidence that Garamantes spoke Mande languages from sources other than yourself? |
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Post by clydewin98 on May 4, 2010 19:47:24 GMT -5
@ Khafre: I have taught linguistics for years at the University level. Please explain to us how my use of comparative linguistic methods, does not show "a bonafide linguistic link" between Mande and Keftiu (Garamante of Crete names). Give us this analysis using the language and methods associated with historical and comparative linguistic methods that you base your conclusions. . Would you mind posting more evidence that Garamantes spoke Mande languages from sources other than yourself? This is unnecessary. Here is the linguistic evidence. Let's see your analysis. A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa. The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid. Keftiu The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names. Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words. On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names: Keftiu....... Manding sh h.r........ Sye Nsy ..........Nsye 'ksh .........Nkyi Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins) 'dm ..........Demba Rs............. Rsa This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling. . |
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Post by Charlie Bass on May 5, 2010 4:14:52 GMT -5
Would you mind posting more evidence that Garamantes spoke Mande languages from sources other than yourself? This is unnecessary. Here is the linguistic evidence. Let's see your analysis. Yes it is necessary, its important to see how your theory compares to others it might even be in your favor, I never accept the views of one person in drawing a conclusion. The Songhai speaking Djerma in Niger could be descendants of the Garamantes as they are Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples like the present day inhabitants in the Fezzan, though the Songhai language might be independent in itself. |
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Post by azrur on Oct 19, 2013 22:02:52 GMT -5
i think the name garamante is related to the god of berber mythology amon
gara aman similar to nasamon nas amon
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ziri
Commoner
Posts: 4 
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Post by ziri on Nov 20, 2013 17:59:10 GMT -5
tuaregs are not garamantians,they are getulians. And no getulians are not black  Tuaregs don't even consider themselves as black,and malians don't consider them as black as well. |
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Post by Abyssos on Nov 20, 2013 18:26:27 GMT -5
tuaregs are not garamantians,they are getulians. And no getulians are not black Tuaregs don't even consider themselves as black,and malians don't consider them as black as well. You do not speak for tuaregs, malians, etc. There are nigerians, sudanese, ghanians, jamaicans, and so on who do not consider themselves black no matter how 'black' they look. There are north africans(Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, Libyans, Egyptians) who are VERY light in skin tone and wavy haired but consider themselves black. Everyone has different opinions. They are not a monolith. |
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Post by anansi on Nov 21, 2013 0:43:27 GMT -5
tuaregs are not garamantians,they are getulians. And no getulians are not black Tuaregs don't even consider themselves as black,and malians don't consider them as black as well. You do not speak for tuaregs, malians, etc. There are nigerians, sudanese, ghanians, jamaicans, and so on who do not consider themselves black no matter how 'black' they look. There are north africans(Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, Libyans, Egyptians) who are VERY light in skin tone and wavy haired but consider themselves black. Everyone has different opinions. They are not a monolith. Complex issue Jamaicans are not a "race" but a nation comprising of many different ancestries,I have had no experience with very dark skinned Jamaicans not claiming to be Black,then again there are Jamaicans who are lite skinned who may or may not say they are black based on skin shade but will acknowledge African ancestry if present. |
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Post by anansi on Nov 21, 2013 0:59:43 GMT -5
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Post by azrur on Dec 21, 2013 19:04:37 GMT -5
^^ I agree there are some similarities, but the Garamante Kingdom, was post AE pharonic period, and there is no evidence to suggest that they ever mummified the royals, so I don't believe they are remnants of the AE society, if that's what you're suggesting. I do believe they are one of many other African Kingdoms that resisted "outside", i.e. Greek, Persian, Roman, invasions. To continue my research on the Garamante Kingdom: According to a book titled The Berbers by Michael Brett, The Tuareg speak the purest form of Berber, their language has little Arabic loan words, or words derived from the Vandal occupation in North Africa. Even now after the French occupation, you would often find Moroccans mixing so many forms of the various languages introduced to them, that no one outside the country can understand them. The other Berber speakers can’t understand their dialect of Berber, the Arabic speakers can’t understand their dialect of Arabic, and the French can’t understand their French dialect. I suppose you can say they speak a ’creole’ type of each language. He claims that the Tuareg live in more isolation from foreign intruders, more inland, which is why their language remains the most pure. Also according to his sources, the physical anthropology of the remains of the Garamante tombs and Tombs in Ahaggar region, resemble the modern Tuareg more than any of the other Berber speakers. In fact the name of the Fezzan in Tamachek language is Tarega, which suggest that the term Tuareg means “People of the Fezzan”. It is also important to note that the Tuareg do not claim any descendent from Arabs, as some of the other Berber speaking tribes who claim ancestry from the prophet Mohammed’s companions. The Tuareg claim ancestry to a queen named Tin Hinan, who was an exceedingly tall woman according to archaeologist. Archaeology evidence shows that the Garamante Kingdom was a mixed agricultural and pastoral society. However, Tuareg regard agriculture as something for slaves and lower classes, at least the physical aspect of picking up a hoe and cultivating the land, so it’s possible that they held slaves during this period, though no evidence suggest it. Of course Tin Hinan, like so many others, has already be ‘white-washed’ by modern scholars, claiming she is the Queen to “White” North Africans, when no evidence exist to suggest this woman was of European descent AT ALL. Please try not to get off-topic, as I am not finished with my research on this Kingdom and how it relates to modern Tuareg society.berber from rif mountains morrocco and berber from siwa egpypt can talk and understand to each other why would vandal words be in berber language? that make no sense and yes arabs cant understand magrheb arab because it is mainly berber with some arab words and most berbers live in isolation except for the ones on the very coast in mountains you find no intruders either same as desert why would arabs not get tuareg they too in the desert? i tell you why because of the flies, the flies they are not good for their horses and camels so they can not go further into the desert that is what has been said garamante slaves i think they took many they said that they hunt ethiopian troglodytes in their chariots for slaves tin hinan who said she is from europe? i have never heard that before and did they mean white like from europe or just light skinned you know sometimes they call people white because they are light skinned sometimes black because they are dark skin not meaning they look like a white european or a black african you know yeah? herodotus he is a greek man you see someone said he says this of the garamantes were nomadic and pastoral tribes that usually live around oasis and by selling food or slaves sound like the tuareg yeah? he also said they live farther north than the ethiopians and farther south than gaetulians he said they look like between libyans of northern parts and the ethiopians on the southern parts |
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Post by azrur on Dec 22, 2013 3:21:03 GMT -5
You have not read much West African history. This is clear from the fact that you don’t know that people throughout the Saharan and Sahel formerly used chariots as a major means of transportation. In addition they also rode horses. As a result, your contention that chariots would have been unable to cross the Sahara is patently wrong. Also you must remember that the climatic conditions were probably different when chariots served as a major means of transportation in Africa.You can read about chariots and horseback riding in Africa here: bafsudralam.blogspot.com/search?q=chariotsclyde.winters.tripod.com/garamante.htmlEveryone notes that the Cherokee script was based on the Vai writing. As you can see from the picture above the Cherokee were greatly influenced by African Muslims note the turban Please don’t question my knowledge on West African history, and lets stick to the topic at hand. During the period in question, the Sahara was already in a dry phase prior to 3500 B.C. (which is why it is hypothesized that many Saharans moved to the Nile Valley). The Garamante Kingdom existed contemporaneously with AE Dynasty, as first noted by Herodotus. “ During the last 5,000 years, rainfall has been negligible, and therefore agricultural production increasingly depended on the ability to acquire water from underground sources. This was most notably achieved by the use of foggaras, subterranean tunnels which tap aquifers and lead water to cultivated plots. A minimum of 617 of these foggaras are known in the Fezzan. They provided for the basis for substantial human occupation, with population numbers possibly in the tens of thousands at their peak in the first three centuries CE (Daniels estimated 120,000 Garamantian tombs could be found along the Wadi al-Ajal). The majority of the population lived in towns and villages, though they were stereotyped as transhumant pastoralists by Greek and Roman authors. Garamantian civilization declined from c. 400 CE. The Fazzan existed outside Islamic control until the 11th or 12th century, but new trans-Saharan trade routes developed through Morocco and Algeria, and the influence of the Garamantes on the development of the desert diminished.”No one is arguing that Chariots were not driven by the Garamants in the desert. But it is illogical to assume that these small chariots could travel from the FEZZAN to the Tichitt area of Maurentania to engage in inter-Saharan trade. There existed several trade routes along the same path. There was not ONE group that traveled the entire route along, not even the Garamantes. This did not develop until the adoption of the camel. “A theory that the Garamantes, or some other Saharan people, had created chariot routes to provide Rome and Carthage with gold and ivory. However, it has been argued that no horse skeletons have been found dating from this early period in the region, and chariots would have been unlikely vehicles for trading purposes due to their small capacity.” www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Trans-Saharan_tradeAnd also interesting, YOU even said the horse couldn’t be used yourself on this site. www.thesahara.net/sahara_history.htm“In ancient times the horse and *donkeys* were used to pull chariots. But as the Sahara began to dry up, due to a lack of abundant water the horse was abandoned as a means of transportation in the Sahara .”I do believe the Garamante consisted of more than one tribe in existence today, but I think the Tuareg most closely resemble them as modern descendents. And if others tribes did belong during this period, they obviously abandoned the Saharan lifestyle. I cannot say if the Tuareg are actually a Mande people, since they obvious reject the Berber designation assigned to them. And personally I don’t know how language designations are derived and assigned to different people. But sometimes it appears as if you are betraying Mande as the African language from which all other languages derived, as well as Ancient America to as far away as India, and I do not understand how you arrive at such conclusions. How do languages scripts written from right to left derive from languages written from left to right, and bottom to top, etc. Please explain this to me.  tuareg in libya  tuareg in morocco  tuareg in mali  tuareg in libya    as you can see all of them different looking so which one would the garamnte be looking like? or would they look like all of them as for them rejecting berber designation well as far as i have heard of only one had done so a eklan man in mali head of tuareg youth organization of gao something like that he said tuareg not berber they are arab judging from name of his group he sound like a communist and from his claim a religious fanatic might be during the rebellion he join ansar dine yeah or maybe he was working for mali government all along? and during the same rebellion the MNLA proclaimed Azawad free independent democratic berber nation |
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