Hapi Valley Origins and Dispersal of "Niger-Congo speakers"

[truthteacher2007]

It's common knowledge that all humanity is descended from people originating in East Africa. Therefore, all Africans have a common origin in East Africa. That's a no brainer. It's one thing to say that both Egyptians and West Africans share common ancestors. It's another thing to say that West Africans are descended from Egyptians. Since we know that there were cultures that predated the formation of the Egyptian state, why do we act as if Egypt is the be all and end all of civilization in Africa? Why do we assume that every cultural practice originated there? So when we see certain things, like the crook and flail, in Egypt having an equivalent say among the Yoruba, why do we assume it had to have come from Egypt? Why is it so hard to believe that Egypt and the cultures that would settle in West Africa are the children of an older parent and that those common traits were inherited from the parent culture/cultures?

As for tracking features with language?? What??? Who are this "us" and "we"? "We", do not all look the same. "We", do not all have the same body structure, facial features, or skin colors, so what are these "true negro" features that "we" all have in common? Broad noses and thick lips? There are people all over Africa that have those features, even pale skinned North Africans can be found with those features. These features are found across linguistic lines. And the opposite is also true. There are people who are not prognethic, who have thin lips, thin noses and narrow faces found in all language groups in Africa. So yes, there are Niger Congo people who do not have "true negro features".

With regards to a collective identity. It's a relatively modern concept shaped primarily by the experience of colonialism. Prior to that no one had a collective concept of "We blackpeople", "We Africans". No one even was aware of the fact that they all liven on a land mass. There was just, the earth. We live over here, those people live other there and so forth. "My people", refered to my family group, my village, my tribe or nation, in that order. And this was true of every people on the planet. This is why to this day there are still tensions in many countries in Africa, Asia and Europe. Colonial powers came in, drew lines on a map, flung peoples together, who historically never got along, and then left and said, "y'all play nice now". It just doesn't work that way. We see evidence of this with Rawanda, Darfur, Biafra, Liberia, Yougoslavia, (or what use to be Yougoslavia), Chechnia, Timor, India and Pakistan. The point I'm making here is that "my people", is just as much a social construct as anything else such as "African". They are all social constructs created in the context of historical, political and social events. There is no collective "Bantu" identity. If there was, why would they constantly be at each other's throats? The concept of tribalism is a very real issue in many parts of Africa that threatens the stability of many nations.

Lastly, the issue of albinos. Albinism is a genetic defect. Fair skinned people are not suffering from a genetic mutation. Albinism is the total absence of melanin in the skin, not low levels of melanin. Furthermore, not all so call white people have the same amounts of melanin. Some have more and some have less. Even within their countries of origin skin tones vary.

[amunratheultimate]

Feb 4, 2014 11:33:32 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

It's common knowledge that all humanity is descended from people originating in East Africa. Therefore, all Africans have a common origin in East Africa. That's a no brainer.

Yeah, but that would be ridiculous. It's like saying nothing. Almost all modern Africans have a common origin in East Africa postdating the OOA migration thus at a period much later that the date for the AMHs.

For example, E-P2 and E-M2 carriers, and Niger-Kordofanian speakers, have their common origin in Eastern Africa, posdating the OOA migration, E-P2 and E-M2 weren't part of the OOA migration and the mutation appeared afterward. Other populations like Nilo-Saharan, Cushitic, Chadic populations and even maybe Khoisan further back in time, probably have their "recent" origin in Eastern Africa too. At a time much closer to us than the origin of the AMHs (anatomically modern humans).

That's why indigenous black African populations are genetically close to each others in term of genetic distance in comparable way to European, East Asian and Native American populations are genetically close to each others respectively. Only Mbuti-like people, and maybe Khoisans, to a lower degree, are a bit further away from other African populations, but they are not that far away because the Bantu migration led to some admixture (some hunter gatherers were also absorbed in West Africa maybe some were A00 carriers).

This genetic closeness and "recent" common origin of African people have important repercussions for history and archaeology.

[asante]

Feb 4, 2014 11:33:32 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

It's another thing to say that West Africans are descended from Egyptians.

You use the label "West Africans" see how we don't even have a collective name for West African Niger-Congo speakers and Southern African Bantu speakers (M2 lineage Africans) besides that which indicates our contemporary location. There is no formal name for the so-called "true Negro" M2 carrying black Africans, besides that which designates our language. Why? You speaking about "Egyptians" as though the population was a monolithic African population all it's own when it was anything but. Do we not know that a third of the Dynastic Egyptian skulls were "true Negro" (what else do we call this pattern)? We know that the source of this population with this specific morphology along with M2 lineages originated in the Eastern Sudan over 12,000 years ago and HAD TO have made it's way up the Nile Valley into Egypt to explain their presence in the Nile. Why can't this supported northward migration from the Sudan into Egypt of M2 lineage carrying Africans with "true Negroid" head shapes be the ancestors of contemporary West African Niger-Congo speakers and Southern African Bantu's?

Since we know that there were cultures that predated the formation of the Egyptian state, why do we act as if Egypt is the be all and end all of civilization in Africa?

Well I thought that it was common knowledge among ES posters that Nubia is the mother of ancient Egypt. Ta-Seti, Sudan.



^^
The "Anu" ("Bantu") people don't look like Horners/Hamites, nor Nilotic, nor Khoisan, they look like "true negroes" and likely carry the M2 lineages that have characterized ancient Egyptian DNA results. Why is this cojoined "Niger-Congo" and "Afrisan" expansion as detailed throughout this thread and the Nile Valley dispersal into equatorial Africa as recalled by every single Bantu and contemporary "West African" oral tradition. Or do those oral traditions somehow not mean a damn thing?

Why do we assume that every cultural practice originated there? So when we see certain things, like the crook and flail, in Egypt having an equivalent say among the Yoruba, why do we assume it had to have come from Egypt?

So are you even aware that the Yoruba oral tradition say that they came from ancient Egypt. If their own oral tradition is stating this and you have no logical way to explain away affinities of all kinds between the two groups in question then why is there such a strong will to deliberately undermine that oral tradition?

EGYPT YORUBA
1. Wu (rise) Wu (rise)
2. Ausa (Osiris, father of the gods) Ausa (father)
3. Ere (python/ Serpent) Ere (Python / Serpent)
4. Horise (a great god) Orise (a great god)
5. Sen (group of worshippers) Sen ( to worship)
6. Ged (to chant0 Igede (a chant)
7. Ta (sell / offer) Ta (sell/offer)
8. Sueg (a fool) Suegbe (a fool)
9. On ( living person) One ( living person)
10. Kum (a club) Kumo( a club)
11. Enru (fear / terrible) Eru (fear / terrible
12. Kun / qun (brave man) Ekun (title of a brave man)
13. Win (to be) Wino (to be)
14. Odonit (festival) Odon (festival)
15. Ma or mi (to breath) Mi. (to breathe)
16. Tebu (a town) Tebu (a town)
17. Adumu (a water god) Adumu (a water god)
18. Khu (to kill) Ku (die)
19. Rekha (knowledge} Larikha (knowledge)
20 Hika (evil) Ika (evil)
21 Mhebi (humble) Mebi, humble to ones family
22 Sata (perfect) Santan (perfect)
23 Unas (lake of fire) Una (fire)
24 Tan (complete) Tan (complete)
25 Beru (force of emotion) Beru (fear)
26 Em (smell) Emi (smell)
27 Pa (open) Pa (break open)
28 Bi (to become) Bi (to give birth, to become)
29 Hepi (a water god) Ipi (a water god)
30 Sami (water god) Sami (a water god)
31 Osiri (a water god) Oshiri (a water god)
32 Heqet – Re (frog deity) Ekere (the frog)
33 Feh (to go away) Feh (to blow away)
34 Kot (build) Ko (build)
35 Kot (boat) Oko (boat)
36 Omi (water) Omi (water)
37 Ra (time) Ira (time)
38 Oni (title of Osiris) Oni (title of the king of Ife)
39 Budo (dwelling place) Budo (dwelling place)
40 Dudu (black image of Osiris) Dudu (black person)
41 Un (living person) Una (living person)
42 Ra (possess) Ra (possess/buy)
43 Beka (pray/confess) Be or ka (to pray or confess)
44 Po (many) Po (many/cheap)
45 Horuw (head) middle Egyptian Oruwo (head) (Ijebu)
46 Min (a god) Emin (spirit)
47 Ash (invocation) Ashe (invocation)
48 Aru (mouth) Arun (mouth ) Ilaje
49 Do (river) Odo (river)
50 Do (settlement) Udo (settlement)
51 Shekiri (water god) Shekiri (a water god)
52 Bu (a place) Bu ,a place
53 Khepara (beetle Akpakara (beetle)
54 No (a water god Eno (a water god)
55 Ra -Shu (light after darkness Uran-shu (the light of the moon
56 Run-ka (spirit name) Oruko (name)
57 Deb/dib to pierce Dibi (to pierce)
58 Maat (goddess of justice Mate (goddess of justice)
59 Aru (rise) Ru (rise up)
60 Fa (carry) Fa (pull)
61 Kaf (pluck) Ka (pluck)
62 Bu bi (evil place) Bubi (evil place)
63 In- n (negation In-n (negation)
64 Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god)
65 Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher)
66 Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door)
67 Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big)
68 Ma (to know) Ma (to know)
69 Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god
70 Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling )
71 Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk)
72 Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired)
73 Mu (water) Mu (drink water)
74 Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment)
75 Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen)
76 Hir (praise) Yiri (praise)
77 Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out)
78 Kurud (round) Kurudu (round)
79 Ak – male Ako (male)
80 Se – to create Se (to create)
81 Hoo (rejoice) Yo (rejoice)
82 Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black
83 Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water)
84 Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother
85 Ta (land) Ita (land junction)
86 Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head)
87 Ro (talk) Ro (to think)
88 Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round)
89 Penka (divide) Kpen (divide)
90 Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould)
91 Osa (time) Osa (time)
92 Osa (tide) Osa ( tide)
93 Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap)
94 Kom (complete) Kon (complete)
95 Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra)
96 Didi (red fruit) Diden (red)
97 Ba (soul) Oba (king) soul of a people
98 Ke (hill) Oke( hill
99 Anubis (evil deity) Onubi (evil person)
100 Kan (one: Middle Egyptian) Okan one)
101 Nam (water god) Inama (water god)

What other theory in regards to the origins and migrations of "Niger-Congo" speakers can possibly explain the above? This is significant.

Why is it so hard to believe that Egypt and the cultures that would settle in West Africa are the children of an older parent and that those common traits were inherited from the parent culture/cultures?

It's hard to believe because there is no evidence to support that which you find so easy to believe. Why are you so fiercely supporting a theory about your people's origins that has no support?

Lastly, the issue of albinos. Albinism is a genetic defect. Fair skinned people are not suffering from a genetic mutation. Albinism is the total absence of melanin in the skin, not low levels of melanin. Furthermore, not all so call white people have the same amounts of melanin. Some have more and some have less. Even within their countries of origin skin tones vary.

Explanation to all that bunk here.

[truthteacher2007]

Feb 4, 2014 16:42:44 GMT -5 asante said:

Feb 4, 2014 11:33:32 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

It's another thing to say that West Africans are descended from Egyptians.

You use the label "West Africans" see how we don't even have a collective name for West African Niger-Congo speakers and Southern African Bantu speakers (M2 lineage Africans) besides that which indicates our contemporary location.

That's because there has never been a collective name for any group of people on Earth based on physical appearences. Africans, just like everybody on Earth, have always and still do, base their identity firstly on shared family ties, (or "tribe"),then by village, town or city.

There is no formal name for the so-called "true Negro" M2 carrying black Africans, besides that which designates our language.

What prey tell is this true negro thing? Nobody in Africabases their identity or affiliation based of physical appearences. The physical type Europeans labeled, "true negros", is a physical type found amongst many populations. Not every single individual in a community will share the same features. Guess what? Those "true negros", very often have close relatives who do not have the same features. And by close relatives I mean brother and sisters, cousins, Literal brothers, sisters and cousins.

Why? You speaking about "Egyptians" as though the population was a monolithic African population all it's own when it was anything but. Do we not know that a third of the Dynastic Egyptian skulls were "true Negro" (what else do we call this pattern)?

Nothing I have said implies anything of the sort. Infact, I've been saying the exact opposite. The Egyptian population was composed of people of many different physical types. They did not separate themselves based on their physical apperances or features. They all shared a common identity that was based first on their family line, then by their nome and lastly by the fact that they shared a common language, culture and were subjects of the nation. 1/3rd of the population had these so called negro features, which means that 2/3rds of the population did not and they were all related and part of the same culture sharing the same identity. Another thing to consider is that people digging up bones cant tell who was related to whom. How do they know that these true negros didn't have family members classified as non negros?

We know that the source of this population with this specific morphology along with M2 lineages originated in the Eastern Sudan over 12,000 years ago and HAD TO have made it's way up the Nile Valley into Egypt to explain their presence in the Nile.

Uhhm.... I think its pretty obvious that they did.... aaaaand? They didn't segragated themselves, nor were they segragated. They shared a common sense of identity with the other people in their communities. They were all Egyptin regardless of how they looked. Why is that so hard to believe?

Why can't this supported northward migration from the Sudan into Egypt of M2 lineage carrying Africans with "true Negroid" head shapes be the ancestors of contemporary West African Niger-Congo speakers and Southern African Bantu's?

One part of the group moved north moved north where they joined other groups that migrated to the Nile Valley and created what would one day be known as Egypt, Misr, Kemt, Ta Meri or whatever we want to call it and guess what? They're still there. One part eventually ended up in West Africa. One group stayed right where they always were in East Africa. But saying that only people from Egypt who had a certain physical appearance migrated to West Africa is a long shot. For one thing, it would imply that people in Egypt were divided according to physical features and this is not true. If only broad featured people left Egypt to settle in West Africa, what happened to everyone else? If you had a narrow nose you couldn't get a visa?

Since we know that there were cultures that predated the formation of the Egyptian state, why do we act as if Egypt is the be all and end all of civilization in Africa?

Well I thought that it was common knowledge among ES posters that Nubia is the mother of ancient Egypt. Ta-Seti, Sudan.



^^

And there were cultures older than Nubia. They are both the children of that older parent

The "Anu" ("Bantu") people don't look like Horners/Hamites, nor Nilotic, nor Khoisan, they look like "true negroes" and likely carry the M2 lineages that have characterized ancient Egyptian DNA results. Why is this cojoined "Niger-Congo" and "Afrisan" expansion as detailed throughout this thread and the Nile Valley dispersal into equatorial Africa as recalled by every single Bantu and contemporary "West African" oral tradition. Or do those oral traditions somehow not mean a damn thing?

How can I put this politely? Oh, I know, BECAUSE PEOPLE TEND TO MAKE $HIT UP? As state earlier, people in the rest of the continent are not living under rocks. They read books, they have television, some of them even travel. Human beings have a tendency to want to attach and associate themselves to anything they consider prestigious and grand. "Because I said so", is not valid evidence for anything. Another factor is that outsiders tend to read things into what is said. A group in West Africa says, "We came from the East", and we read into that EGYPT. East could mean 100miles a way, 50 miles away or over that mountain over there.

Why do we assume that every cultural practice originated there? So when we see certain things, like the crook and flail, in Egypt having an equivalent say among the Yoruba, why do we assume it had to have come from Egypt?

So are you even aware that the Yoruba oral tradition say that they came from ancient Egypt. If their own oral tradition is stating this and you have no logical way to explain away affinities of all kinds between the two groups in question then why is there such a strong will to deliberately undermine that oral tradition?

EGYPT YORUBA
1. Wu (rise) Wu (rise)
2. Ausa (Osiris, father of the gods) Ausa (father)
3. Ere (python/ Serpent) Ere (Python / Serpent)
4. Horise (a great god) Orise (a great god)
5. Sen (group of worshippers) Sen ( to worship)
6. Ged (to chant0 Igede (a chant)
7. Ta (sell / offer) Ta (sell/offer)
8. Sueg (a fool) Suegbe (a fool)
9. On ( living person) One ( living person)
10. Kum (a club) Kumo( a club)
11. Enru (fear / terrible) Eru (fear / terrible
12. Kun / qun (brave man) Ekun (title of a brave man)
13. Win (to be) Wino (to be)
14. Odonit (festival) Odon (festival)
15. Ma or mi (to breath) Mi. (to breathe)
16. Tebu (a town) Tebu (a town)
17. Adumu (a water god) Adumu (a water god)
18. Khu (to kill) Ku (die)
19. Rekha (knowledge} Larikha (knowledge)
20 Hika (evil) Ika (evil)
21 Mhebi (humble) Mebi, humble to ones family
22 Sata (perfect) Santan (perfect)
23 Unas (lake of fire) Una (fire)
24 Tan (complete) Tan (complete)
25 Beru (force of emotion) Beru (fear)
26 Em (smell) Emi (smell)
27 Pa (open) Pa (break open)
28 Bi (to become) Bi (to give birth, to become)
29 Hepi (a water god) Ipi (a water god)
30 Sami (water god) Sami (a water god)
31 Osiri (a water god) Oshiri (a water god)
32 Heqet – Re (frog deity) Ekere (the frog)
33 Feh (to go away) Feh (to blow away)
34 Kot (build) Ko (build)
35 Kot (boat) Oko (boat)
36 Omi (water) Omi (water)
37 Ra (time) Ira (time)
38 Oni (title of Osiris) Oni (title of the king of Ife)
39 Budo (dwelling place) Budo (dwelling place)
40 Dudu (black image of Osiris) Dudu (black person)
41 Un (living person) Una (living person)
42 Ra (possess) Ra (possess/buy)
43 Beka (pray/confess) Be or ka (to pray or confess)
44 Po (many) Po (many/cheap)
45 Horuw (head) middle Egyptian Oruwo (head) (Ijebu)
46 Min (a god) Emin (spirit)
47 Ash (invocation) Ashe (invocation)
48 Aru (mouth) Arun (mouth ) Ilaje
49 Do (river) Odo (river)
50 Do (settlement) Udo (settlement)
51 Shekiri (water god) Shekiri (a water god)
52 Bu (a place) Bu ,a place
53 Khepara (beetle Akpakara (beetle)
54 No (a water god Eno (a water god)
55 Ra -Shu (light after darkness Uran-shu (the light of the moon
56 Run-ka (spirit name) Oruko (name)
57 Deb/dib to pierce Dibi (to pierce)
58 Maat (goddess of justice Mate (goddess of justice)
59 Aru (rise) Ru (rise up)
60 Fa (carry) Fa (pull)
61 Kaf (pluck) Ka (pluck)
62 Bu bi (evil place) Bubi (evil place)
63 In- n (negation In-n (negation)
64 Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god)
65 Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher)
66 Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door)
67 Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big)
68 Ma (to know) Ma (to know)
69 Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god
70 Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling )
71 Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk)
72 Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired)
73 Mu (water) Mu (drink water)
74 Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment)
75 Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen)
76 Hir (praise) Yiri (praise)
77 Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out)
78 Kurud (round) Kurudu (round)
79 Ak – male Ako (male)
80 Se – to create Se (to create)
81 Hoo (rejoice) Yo (rejoice)
82 Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black
83 Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water)
84 Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother
85 Ta (land) Ita (land junction)
86 Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head)
87 Ro (talk) Ro (to think)
88 Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round)
89 Penka (divide) Kpen (divide)
90 Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould)
91 Osa (time) Osa (time)
92 Osa (tide) Osa ( tide)
93 Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap)
94 Kom (complete) Kon (complete)
95 Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra)
96 Didi (red fruit) Diden (red)
97 Ba (soul) Oba (king) soul of a people
98 Ke (hill) Oke( hill
99 Anubis (evil deity) Onubi (evil person)
100 Kan (one: Middle Egyptian) Okan one)
101 Nam (water god) Inama (water god)

What other theory in regards to the origins and migrations of "Niger-Congo" speakers can possibly explain the above? This is significant.

Just for the record, I'm a Yoruba practitioner. According to Yoruba origin legends, the world was formed when God sent his orisas down to Earth on a golden chain. The spot where they descended was Ile Ife. So whose telling the truth? The Babalawos and other priests who said it all started right there or some body else who says they came from Egypt?

All our prayers and songs are said and sung in Yoruba. Here's the thing you need to be aware of. Yoruba is a tonal language. The meaning of a word can change drastically based on the tone used to pronounce it. This is why you can't just look at words across cultures and make conclusions. You have to actually have some knowledge of those languages to understand them. Ancient Egyptian/Coptic, is not a tonal language, nor are any of the Afro Asiatic languages.

Other thing is that the Yoruba language as spoken today is not the same as it was spoken even 100yrs ago. The dialect of Yoruba spoken by Lucumi practitioners today is an older form than what is spoken in Nigeria today. So how accurate is a comparison with words in two languages, based on two different pronunciation systems, tonal and non tonal, across thousands of years be? Other thing, the Egyptian language also evolved over time. Old Kingdom is not the exact same as New Kigdom or Coptic that was spoken at the time of the Greco Roman conquest. However, in cases where there might be similarities, what would explain them is that both Egypt and various West African ethnic groups share a common ancestor. What's so hard to believe about that?

Why is it so hard to believe that Egypt and the cultures that would settle in West Africa are the children of an older parent and that those common traits were inherited from the parent culture/cultures?

It's hard to believe because there is no evidence to support that which you find so easy to believe. Why are you so fiercely supporting a theory about your people's origins that has no support?

Did West Africans originate on another planet besides Earth? Last time I checked, all Africans originated in East Africa. Soooo, some went North, some eventually went west, some went south..... Why would they have had to first travel north to then at some point, and only the big headed people mind you, move south then west when they could have just walked west from jump street?

Lastly, the issue of albinos. Albinism is a genetic defect. Fair skinned people are not suffering from a genetic mutation. Albinism is the total absence of melanin in the skin, not low levels of melanin. Furthermore, not all so call white people have the same amounts of melanin. Some have more and some have less. Even within their countries of origin skin tones vary.

Explanation to all that bunk here.

You can't be serious. Albinism is the total absense of skin pigmentation, not low pigmentation. Albinos can't go to tanning salons, or lay out on the beach. Europeans and other light complected people are not Albinos. Have you ever seen a European with viteligo? I have, I see them all the time. When they start to loose their pigment you realise just how much of that white was really light brown. The contrast between their original coloring and the depigmented patches is very noticable. Are there people whose skin tones approach that of Albinos? Yes, just as there are Africans and others at the other end of the color spectrum whose skin colors approach black. You can't cherry pick the most extreemly pale people and hold them up as representatives of an entire people any more than you can hold a Nuba up as an example of all Africans.

[anansi]

Here are other reasons that linked the Nile to the Niger and beyond the forty days road long used for X thousands of yrs perhaps beyond the drying out of the Sahara proper bringing ideas and people traveling in both direction,there is no great mystery to this.

The upper inscription on the right reads Iam hr ms ntr... ("Yam bringing ..."). The land of Yam was the destination of three lengthy voyages made by Harkhouf, whose autobiographical texts on the facade of his rock tomb in Aswan are among the most important Ancient Egyptian historical records. While the three voyages are described in much detail, the location of Yam has been a total mystery, with most Egyptologists placing it somewhere in Nubia and west of the Nile. The reference to Yam at Uweinat suggests that the route starting at Dakhla, and clearly passing by Uweinat, could possibly have continued on to Yam, which in this case could have been further south-west (with Uweinat possibly being a meeting and trading point). Possible areas thay may be identified as Yam are Darfur, Ennedi or even the Tibesti mountains. Unfortunately the name of the produce is too weathered to be clearly readable, but the figure holding a bowl or basket full of some substance behind the prostrate figure would indicate a powdered or granular substance. The first sign of the produce is ntr, Clayton and Trafford suggest a reading of Sn-ntr (incense), as this was a produce of Yam referred to by Harkhouf. Having had a good close look, I'm reasonably convinced that no more than one sign could be after ntr, the other patterns are simply weathering. This would not fit sn-ntr, however there is an alternate reading/produce, ntr-y (a kind of Natron). We do know that Natron is a key produce of the Chad region to this day, and with the ongoing civil war in Egypt, Mentuhotep in Thebes may have been cut off from the only major supply of this material crucial for mummification, Wadi Natrun in the north.



Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1015/pharaonic-trail-land-yam#ixzz2sPKhxLYa
Also relevant thread
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/254?page=3

Concepts of race and ethnicity are among the most controversial, contentious, and misunderstood classifications in our social and scientific landscapes. Among geneticists, there are two dominant historical perspectives on race and ethnicity. On the one hand, there is a perspective rooted in the eugenics movement and early population genetics that treats racial and ethnic categories as biological classifications (Kevles 1995), attempting to use scientific analysis to specify the precise nature of presumed biological differences between those socially labeled populations (Huxley 1951). On the other hand, there is a perspective with its roots in the work of physical anthropologists and social scientists who argue that race and ethnicity are primarily cultural and historical constructions with little biological significance (Boas 1942). Although there has been much debate among geneticists regarding these two competing perspectives throughout the 20th century, geneticists at the beginning of the 21st century have yet to reconcile these divergent views on race and ethnicity.
genome.cshlp.org/content/12/6/844.full

In other words science has moved on the thing with measuring noses and head shapes had long been discarded to construct "RACE" as it is fundamentally flawed and have no scientific basis.

Mike has his theories but I can have a theory that said folks afflicted by down syndrome are proto Asians as the older term for that affliction is called Mongolism which would be just as wrong and offensive.

[asante]

Feb 4, 2014 20:40:43 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

The spot where they descended was Ile Ife. So whose telling the truth? The Babalawos and other priests who said it all started right there or some body else who says they came from Egypt?

Which claim were you just presented evidence for? Here's more evidence:



Why do the Yoruba use pectorals sporting a Rams head just like the ancient Egyptian example on the top right? The Yoruba claim that their origin is in the East. Did M2 lineages not originate in Eastern Africa somewhere around the Sudan? If the Yoruba genetic lineage originated in Eastern Africa (a fact) then why would you even entertain ONE of their dueling theories of origins which say different? Why believe something that has no evidence to support it?

Here's the thing you need to be aware of. Yoruba is a tonal language. The meaning of a word can change drastically based on the tone used to pronounce it. This is why you can't just look at words across cultures and make conclusions. You have to actually have some knowledge of those languages to understand them. Ancient Egyptian/Coptic, is not a tonal language, nor are any of the Afro Asiatic languages.

Yes I agree. You do have to be very versed in these Niger-Congo Tonal languages in order to properly understand them. The problem is that Europeans did not properly understand those tonal languages and subsequently f-ed up their translations, and as a result our current understanding of African languages (at least in the West) is f-ed up. This is why Theophile Obenga negates the silly indoctrinated belief (stemming from Western sources) that the designated "Afrisan ancient Egyptian" language ≠ Niger-Congo.



Notice how Obenga's language designations takes all of this evidence into account. Why don't you ask why your main sources of information for your argument (assuming) have not taken this information into account in any of their works? 

However, in cases where there might be similarities, what would explain them is that both Egypt and various West African ethnic groups share a common ancestor. What's so hard to believe about that?

That's not an explanation! I'm not in the habit of believing in things or theories without evidence being presented to me supporting the stance. If I just blindly accept your unsupported theory about the origins and migrations of my M2 carrying, Niger-Congo speaking ancestors and the explanation (or lack of) for their undeniable presence in ancient Egypt then that would be indoctrination. Why would I allow myself to be indoctrinated?

Who were these "common ancestors"? Where did they break apart? When did this happen? Do you see how vague and useless that "common ancestor" theory is in explaining this? There are no specifics because their is no support for this "theory". Why so strongly advocate a theory that has no support?

Did West Africans originate on another planet besides Earth? Last time I checked, all Africans originated in East Africa. Soooo, some went North, some eventually went west, some went south..... Why would they have had to first travel north to then at some point, and only the big headed people mind you, move south then west when they could have just walked west from jump street?

Why do you ignore this?

Original homeland of the Bantu up to 1500 A.D
Dark shading: Possible ultimate origin of the Bantu
Cross shading: Area of Bantu expansion into Egypt

The most successful of these were speakers of Proto-Afro-Asiatic language from the African rift valley. Going through the savannah, the Chadic speakers reached Lake Chad while the Berbers, the Maghreb and the Proto-Egyptians arrived in Upper Egypt. However Martin Bernal did not consider speakers of Proto-Bantu in his analysis. It is the author’s contention, from the linguistic contents, that speakers of Proto-Bantu played an active part at the time of the expansion of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Rift Valley of East Africa. These Proto-Bantu speakers going through the savannah formed part of the migration to Egypt. The Bantu languages together with other indigenous languages fused together and became embedded to form the Proto-Egyptian language. It is for this reason that the Ancient Egyptian language contains a substantial amount of Proto-Bantu or Bantu roots.



However Guthrie speculated that before the Proto-Bantu expansion from Zaire, there had been several pre-Bantu stages, at which time the Bantu ancestors lived far to the north around Lake Chad. One group from this area made its way to Zaire and became the Proto-Bantu. The Proto-Bantu speakers and Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers lived along side each other. They traded together, shared and exchanged common vocabularies of words.

link

The map below shows OUR blood disease following the trail of this lonely "Afrisan" migration above even out into the Middle East. We can see (look really hard) that all types of Sickle Cells (ignore the misleading labels that they have assigned each type) are found in Iran. Iran is the location of ancient Mesopotamia. The ancient Sumerian inhabitants of Mesopotamia spoke a language related to Niger-Congo (or was apart of) which has been noted by contemporary white scholars. 



Notice that the trail of sickle cell also goes into Turkey and Greece. Did Brace 2006 not group the Natufanians of Palestine/Canaan as "true Negroid" US ("Niger-Congo links" as he phrased it)? Ricaut 2008 did he/she not conclude that collective evidence suggested that populations with "Sub Saharan morphologies" were the base population of the Levant, southern Europe, and yes Europe. These people were of course farmers. "Hellenization" or the coming of the Dorians, or populations with contemporary European affinities (haplogroup R carriers) trickled down into southern Europe and parts of the Middle East.

Or this:





and the fact this theory in no way shape or form conflicts with the position of contemporary M2 lineage carrying, Niger-Congo speaking "true negroes".
Do the ancient Egyptian and Sudanese individuals below look like Nilotes, Horners/Hamites, US, the Twa, Khoisan?






I think that given what we know it's just common sense at this point.

Albinism is the total absense of skin pigmentation, not low pigmentation.

If you want you can new thread out of it.

[asante]

Feb 4, 2014 21:21:39 GMT -5 anansi said:

Here are other reasons that linked the Nile to the Niger and beyond the forty days road long used for X thousands of yrs perhaps beyond the drying out of the Sahara proper bringing ideas and people traveling in both direction,there is no great mystery to this.

The upper inscription on the right reads Iam hr ms ntr... ("Yam bringing ..."). The land of Yam was the destination of three lengthy voyages made by Harkhouf, whose autobiographical texts on the facade of his rock tomb in Aswan are among the most important Ancient Egyptian historical records. While the three voyages are described in much detail, the location of Yam has been a total mystery, with most Egyptologists placing it somewhere in Nubia and west of the Nile. The reference to Yam at Uweinat suggests that the route starting at Dakhla, and clearly passing by Uweinat, could possibly have continued on to Yam, which in this case could have been further south-west (with Uweinat possibly being a meeting and trading point). Possible areas thay may be identified as Yam are Darfur, Ennedi or even the Tibesti mountains. Unfortunately the name of the produce is too weathered to be clearly readable, but the figure holding a bowl or basket full of some substance behind the prostrate figure would indicate a powdered or granular substance. The first sign of the produce is ntr, Clayton and Trafford suggest a reading of Sn-ntr (incense), as this was a produce of Yam referred to by Harkhouf. Having had a good close look, I'm reasonably convinced that no more than one sign could be after ntr, the other patterns are simply weathering. This would not fit sn-ntr, however there is an alternate reading/produce, ntr-y (a kind of Natron). We do know that Natron is a key produce of the Chad region to this day, and with the ongoing civil war in Egypt, Mentuhotep in Thebes may have been cut off from the only major supply of this material crucial for mummification, Wadi Natrun in the north.


Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1015/pharaonic-trail-land-yam#ixzz2sPKhxLYa
Also relevant thread
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/254?page=3

YES THE NILOTIC-SAHARAN ELEMENT OF ANCIENT EGYPT.....who denies any of this? I know about the trek to Chad (The Nilotic homeland). I am THRILLED about the recent but not surprisingly under reported findings in Niger of Hathor (Cow) worship and the pyramid predating ancient Egypt:





The problem with your explanation on this as the common ancestor of ancient Egyptians and West Africans (assuming that you are referring to "us") is that these people were  Nilotes NOT us (M2 carrying, Niger-Congo speaking, "true Negroes")



These migratory events detailed in the map above are of Nilotes. The westward migration of Nilotes onto the Niger river could even explain how haplogroup A wound up in West Africa today (Cameroon). The area around Lake Chad was their stomping grounds. The coming of Nilotic pastoralists onto the Nile Valley is also attested to in ancient Nubian DNA which was shown to be A1b (Nilotic marker). It is clear that their migration is what set a new era in Egyptian history. I say a new era for two reasons: One being that the neolithic was brought onto the Nile: Two because the ancient Egyptian civilization is over 12,000 years old. This is attested to by the real age of the Great Sphinx ("true Negro"/US) which ironically coincides with the northward expansion of "Niger-Congo speaking, M2 lineage true Negro" US and Afrisan speakers along the Nile. Nilotes entered the Nile Valley during phase D. 



The migration of an additional population besides that of OUR earlier northward migration from the Sudan explains why the number of settlements on and around the Nile Valley more than doubled from the first phase to the last. 

In other words science has moved on the thing with measuring noses and head shapes had long been discarded to construct "RACE" as it is fundamentally flawed and have no scientific basis.

That's silly! Why try to obfuscate what I'm clearly trying to say? I'm not pigeon holing African diversity by identifying US and recognizing the fact that WE (specifying us) all have a common origin in Eastern Africa (Sudan) and should (but don't) have a collective names for ourselves. Instead our physical type is treated as an insult, as we are only identified as "True Negroes" or simply "Negro". When this identity is utilized in Western science it is either "offensive" or "pigeon holing African diversity". Yes Nilotes and Horners/Hamites are too black (unmistakably so), but they are NOT us. These distinct black Africans were also apart of ancient Egypt (of course) just like WE were. Both populations are more gracile then us (and most of the world subsequently) and were subsequently designated as "non black" (various silly "Caucasoid" categories) and of course "true Negroid" US representing over a third (of three types) of the Dynastic Egyptian population was made out to look like the subservient minority ("late coming" at that) of the majority "Caucasoid" populace. Though I do not advocate for the scientific concept of race, denying biological realities (the identity of US as a M2 lineage carrying, Niger-Congo speaking, "true Negro") is not at all "scientific". 

[truthteacher2007]

Feb 4, 2014 23:24:14 GMT -5 asante said:

Feb 4, 2014 20:40:43 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

The spot where they descended was Ile Ife. So whose telling the truth? The Babalawos and other priests who said it all started right there or some body else who says they came from Egypt?

Which claim were you just presented evidence for? Here's more evidence:



Why do the Yoruba use pectorals sporting a Rams head just like the ancient Egyptian example on the top right? The Yoruba claim that their origin is in the East. Did M2 lineages not originate in Eastern Africa somewhere around the Sudan? If the Yoruba genetic lineage originated in Eastern Africa (a fact) then why would you even entertain ONE of their dueling theories of origins which say different? Why believe something that has no evidence to support it?

Here's the thing you need to be aware of. Yoruba is a tonal language. The meaning of a word can change drastically based on the tone used to pronounce it. This is why you can't just look at words across cultures and make conclusions. You have to actually have some knowledge of those languages to understand them. Ancient Egyptian/Coptic, is not a tonal language, nor are any of the Afro Asiatic languages.

Yes I agree. You do have to be very versed in these Niger-Congo Tonal languages in order to properly understand them. The problem is that Europeans did not properly understand those tonal languages and subsequently f-ed up their translations, and as a result our current understanding of African languages (at least in the West) is f-ed up. This is why Theophile Obenga negates the silly indoctrinated belief (stemming from Western sources) that the designated "Afrisan ancient Egyptian" language ≠ Niger-Congo.



Notice how Obenga's language designations takes all of this evidence into account. Why don't you ask why your main sources of information for your argument (assuming) have not taken this information into account in any of their works? 

However, in cases where there might be similarities, what would explain them is that both Egypt and various West African ethnic groups share a common ancestor. What's so hard to believe about that?

That's not an explanation! I'm not in the habit of believing in things or theories without evidence being presented to me supporting the stance. If I just blindly accept your unsupported theory about the origins and migrations of my M2 carrying, Niger-Congo speaking ancestors and the explanation (or lack of) for their undeniable presence in ancient Egypt then that would be indoctrination. Why would I allow myself to be indoctrinated?

Who were these "common ancestors"? Where did they break apart? When did this happen? Do you see how vague and useless that "common ancestor" theory is in explaining this? There are no specifics because their is no support for this "theory". Why so strongly advocate a theory that has no support?

Did West Africans originate on another planet besides Earth? Last time I checked, all Africans originated in East Africa. Soooo, some went North, some eventually went west, some went south..... Why would they have had to first travel north to then at some point, and only the big headed people mind you, move south then west when they could have just walked west from jump street?

Why do you ignore this?

Original homeland of the Bantu up to 1500 A.D
Dark shading: Possible ultimate origin of the Bantu
Cross shading: Area of Bantu expansion into Egypt

The most successful of these were speakers of Proto-Afro-Asiatic language from the African rift valley. Going through the savannah, the Chadic speakers reached Lake Chad while the Berbers, the Maghreb and the Proto-Egyptians arrived in Upper Egypt. However Martin Bernal did not consider speakers of Proto-Bantu in his analysis. It is the author’s contention, from the linguistic contents, that speakers of Proto-Bantu played an active part at the time of the expansion of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Rift Valley of East Africa. These Proto-Bantu speakers going through the savannah formed part of the migration to Egypt. The Bantu languages together with other indigenous languages fused together and became embedded to form the Proto-Egyptian language. It is for this reason that the Ancient Egyptian language contains a substantial amount of Proto-Bantu or Bantu roots.



However Guthrie speculated that before the Proto-Bantu expansion from Zaire, there had been several pre-Bantu stages, at which time the Bantu ancestors lived far to the north around Lake Chad. One group from this area made its way to Zaire and became the Proto-Bantu. The Proto-Bantu speakers and Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers lived along side each other. They traded together, shared and exchanged common vocabularies of words.

link

The map below shows OUR blood disease following the trail of this lonely "Afrisan" migration above even out into the Middle East. We can see (look really hard) that all types of Sickle Cells (ignore the misleading labels that they have assigned each type) are found in Iran. Iran is the location of ancient Mesopotamia. The ancient Sumerian inhabitants of Mesopotamia spoke a language related to Niger-Congo (or was apart of) which has been noted by contemporary white scholars. 



Notice that the trail of sickle cell also goes into Turkey and Greece. Did Brace 2006 not group the Natufanians of Palestine/Canaan as "true Negroid" US ("Niger-Congo links" as he phrased it)? Ricaut 2008 did he/she not conclude that collective evidence suggested that populations with "Sub Saharan morphologies" were the base population of the Levant, southern Europe, and yes Europe. These people were of course farmers. "Hellenization" or the coming of the Dorians, or populations with contemporary European affinities (haplogroup R carriers) trickled down into southern Europe and parts of the Middle East.

Or this:





and the fact this theory in no way shape or form conflicts with the position of contemporary M2 lineage carrying, Niger-Congo speaking "true negroes".
Do the ancient Egyptian and Sudanese individuals below look like Nilotes, Horners/Hamites, US, the Twa, Khoisan?






I think that given what we know it's just common sense at this point.

Albinism is the total absense of skin pigmentation, not low pigmentation.

If you want you can new thread out of it.

Firstly, as I said, I'm a practitioner of a Yoruba derived religion. I'm well aware of the similarityies between Yoruba practices and Egyptian spiritual practices, so this comes as no surprise to me. However, I think its a long stretch to claim the Yoruba came from Egypt. The argument may make sense on paper, but not in real life. There are so many reasons why this could be. #1: these traits originated with the peoples and cultures in East Africa. Some of these people migrated north taking those practices with them, some migrated west taking those practices with them as well. The ones who migrated north would contribute to the formation of the Egyptian culture, those who went west would form the proto Nok, Nok and yoruba culture.

Another explanation is that these ideas could have been transmitted along trade routes without either people having met each other. We see examples of this happening with trade between Asia and Europe. For example, the tradition in European Middle Age paintings of showing saints or holy people with a halo. This tradition started in China thousands of years ago. It was introduced into India, then Persia, then Anatolia and finally into Europe. The fact that both cultures have the same thing isn't proof that 13th century Europeans originally came from China. The idea originated there and gradually moved west.

Egypt inherited a great deal of its culture and traditions from older cultures. The practice of using head rests is still fund among remote peoples as far south as Kenya and by certain peoples in the Sahel if I'm not mistaken. Peoples all over Africa wear broad collars. The Masai wear a variation of it. The Zulu do too. Is this proof that the Masai are descended from Egypt, or does it make more sense that these traditions and practices were introduced into Egypt by members of older cultures who migrated into what would become Egypt. We both agree that there were cultures that existed before Egypt and that Egypt was populated through a series of migrations from other areas of Africa, particularly East Africa. Are you saying that those early immigrants came empty handed and had no culture of their own till they created it in Egypt? I don't think you do. Therefore, it only stands to reason that the parent cultures stayed behind, while some of the children struck out in different directions carrying elements of their culture with them and evolving new cultures as they adapted to the new environments they found themselves in. This is the story of humanity. You don't need an archeologist to tell you this, only a bit of logic and observation.

Why is it that Americans and Australians both speak English? The English we speak is not exactly the same, but it's close enough. Did English originate in America or Australia, no. Where did it come from? A tiny island offthe coast of Europe called England. Although America and Australia are on opposite sides of the globe they both share many lingusitic, cultural and religious similarities that they both inherited from mother England. What you are suggesting makes as much sense as saying Australia was colonised by Americans. It would make sense on paper. They look alike, (at least the white ones), they dress alike, their languages are almost identical, they share the same religious practices. But the reason for these things is not that one had anything to do with the other, but that they share the same root, England. Likewise, the similarities between various cultures in West Africa and Egypt is not due to the fact one had any direct contact with the other, but that they both sprang from a common root that originated in East Africa long ago.

If Egypt was comprised of people of various physical types, (which they were), why was it only the people with so called negro features who felt the need to migrate out of Egypt? It doesn't make sense in the real world. By the time of the formation of the Egyptian state all these diverse looking people were one nation, one people, one culture. A typical family would have included people with broad features and narrow features. So why would only the broad featured people pick up and go leaving their other relatives behind?

According to the National Geographic map you quote, M2 broke off from the parent M96 31 to 70,000 years ago. This means that M2 carrying people were already in Wst Africa thousands of years before the formation of the Egyptian state or culture.

As to the linguistics. What I propose does indeed make sense. If proto Bantu people migrated into Egypt that must mean some of them stayed behind. Every single person in the group didn't leave. It's not so farfetched to believe that of those who stayed behind, another group of proto Bantu speakers then headed West. That would explain why you have similar words in both locations.

As for all the pictures of broad featured Egyptians..... yeah, and? Why is this surprising? Haven't I been saying all along that people with these features were and still are to this very day, still living in Egypt? So why would I be surprised to see a statue of someone with a wide nose of thick lips? Thick lips, thin lips, light skin, dark skin, they were all in Egypt, they were all part of the same families they were all the same people regardless of features. Once again, Egyptian identity was not based on skin color or features but by shared family lines, geography, language and culture. You can't project modern
ideas of race and identity and project them into the past where they never existed. So the question has to be asked again, why would only people with one type of features separate themselves from their society and leave?

[truthteacher2007]

My last thoughts on this issue. In my opinion, this argument is based on the desire of a lot of people who for whatever reason, want to convince themselves and others that they are the real descendants of Ancient Egypt. Personally, I'm not down with that, sorry, I'm just not. My ancestors originated in Wst Africa and Central Africa and I am proud of that. Although they didn't have monumental stone structures, their civilizations were just as vibrant and profound as anything coming out of Egypt. And so, while I admire the beauty of Egypt, I feel more attached to the cultures of my own heritage. For this reason, the idea that what we created had to have come from someone else, to me, is annoying and offensive. Why can't West and Central Africans be given credit for having the brains and ingenuity to create their own cultures? Were we too busy swinging from trees before Egypt came to civilize us? To me the very idea is evocative of the colonialist mentality that the "negro" was incapable of creating anything unless more "advanced people" taught them how. Nothing existed in West Africa untill some mystery migrants for some ungodly reason decided one day to leave the land of milk and honey to settle behind god's back in the bush and turn the savages into semi human beings.

Niw don't get me wrong. I totally understand the anger of having the broad featured African held up as the object of scorn. While I don't look like a "true negro" stereotype, I do resent the suggestion that thick lips, wide noses etc is the definition of ugliness. I see the undeniable beauty in all types of Africans.

I do believe we need to deprogram ourselves because we have been brainwashed to hate ourselves. But how do we do it? I don't believe that we do it by playing the same game as our oppressors. In otherwords, playing race hate in reverse. They say black is inferior, we say white is inferior. They say black is ugly, we say white is ugly. They say we are monkies, we call them albinos. I practice an African dirived spirituality for a reason. It's what's helping me to get off of that merri go round. It's based in the wisdom of a philosophy that has nothing to do with European colonialism and the mentalty of conquest and dominaton. It's based on the concepts of psychological and spiritual evolution and being in balance with the forces of nature and the environment and above all being a person of good character, Ewa, or as the Egyptians would have said Ma'at. It teaches me the reverence and respect of my ancestors because I stand on their shoulders. Therefore, I have to acknowledge and respect all my ancestors, even the slave owning Europeans. Why? Because we are all connected. Their blood flows in my veins. Without them, I would not exist. To hate them, would be to hate myself because like it or not, they are a part of me. Furthermore, the fact that they may have been bastards in life is irrelavent. The second they crossed over, they wre made to see the error of their ways and they have to repent. Part of that repentance may mean becoming your guardian angel. So it's my African spirituality that has provided me a very real way of healing the wounds of my soul inflicted on me my primitive minds.
I'm a happier and healthier person for it.

Racial hatred is the creation of the primitive minds of Europeans who belonged to the ruling class. It's a by product of the class warefare waged against their own people. It's based on fear, hatred and greed. It's negative energy, it's poison. Its is the total opposit of the principles that our ancestors lived by and strove for. Therefore, to play their game, is to still be enslaved by them. This game was crafted by them, for them and the rules will always change to make sure they win. To be hateful and bigoted against them and people who look like them means they win. Why? because the whole point of the game is to create division, hatred and mistrust amongst peoples to ensure that they will never be able to unite to over throw the status quo. Pouring their poison into your black cup wont make you any stronger. It just means your poisoning yourself with your own habd insted of theirs. The only way to win the game is not play it. Yes figth injustice and opression, but do not become like them.

In a nutshell, I think that's the real problem. Deep inside, we feel deficient. We want to be them, or be like them and we're pissed off that we're not. That's what the obsession with Egypt is all about for a lot of people. Egypt is the only African civilization that gets any attention or admiration from the "white world". Egypt was a developed and sophisticated society way before anyone knew there was even a Europe. So our resopnse to White suremacy is to become black supremacists. The black race is the suprior race. And the blacker you are the better. God forbid you be too light. That's what's behind all the bruhaha of trying to insist that Modern Egyptians and North African are not real Africans. Everyone knows real African are black as midnight. If you're not, your not as real, you're less than, diluted. All this is a reflection of the way the Eurocentric Eugenicist mind works. So the Europeans say they are the master race, we counter tit for tat, nor, we are. The blacker the berry the more superior the juice. So we make the Egyptian into the god of the superior black race and then because superiority is genetic, we have to bend over backwards and do all kinds of gymnastics to prove that we, not the inhabitants of Egypt today, (cause there's too many light skindeded peoples over thar), are the real Egyptians. Egypt was a country of only the blackest skinned people, but one day, they all got up and ran away to West Africa leaving Egypt to be populated by foreigners.

What if we just stoped playing the came of life by Eurocentric rules? What if we just acknowledged the fact that the reality of Africa is very different than the idea of Africa created by colonial slave owning masters who wanted to project their notions onto Africa for the need to segragate people and put them in boxes and pretend they have nothing to do with each other? Nowhere in Africa did anyone have such notions. In societies that rever nature we know that all life is connected, we are all relatives of the same family and for us to survive, we need to treat every member of the family with respect, whether they be human, animal, plant or spirit. Now ony are we playing their game, but we're doing it against each other, light skin versus dark skin. The hatred of and insults thrown at Modern Egyptians and North Africans for having light skin is nothing more than a reflection of the tensions within the diaspora regarding colorism. When are we going to set ourselves free and stop waiting for the white man to admire us, respect us, find us beautiful? We're giving our power away.

We think, that if and when we convince white people that Egypt was 100% black, (whatever that means), that they will respect us. No they wouldn't. Don't you get it yet? They don't care. Africans wrre not enslaved because Europeans found us ugly, primitive, stupid or anything like that. They did it because they could, plain and simple. They needed labor, they could get it in large supply from Africans who were willing to sell their enimies to Europeans. White people didn't run up into Africa with shopping carts. The fault ultimately rests at the feet of African leaders who lost touch with the principles of Ewa, Ma'at etc and instead, became obsessed with the acumulation of material wealth. Slfishness and greed on both sides did it. All the crap Europeans said and did was an after thought. They just needed warm bodies. They didn't give a damn where those bodies came from. Before they did it to us, they did it to the Irish, before them, they did it to the poor in their own countries. Yet we mistakenly think that having a great civilization = respect from whitie. Did it work for the East Indians? Did it work for the Chinese? Did it work for the Japanese? How about the Aztecs or Incas? To this day the descendants of the Incas and Aztecs are treated like 3rd class citizens by the European descended ruling class. The Europeans who enslaved our ancestors stole native lands and colonized our countries did it for no other reason than they wanted what they wanted and would do anything to get it, no matter what, PERIOD! So to me, the road to freedom is not adopting their world view and renovating it. Not becoming more like them, but by becoming more like US! Returning to the wisdom and spirituality of our heritage and ancestors. That is what REAL Afrocentricity is all about!

I understand th

[amunratheultimate]

I do not post a lot on this forum but it's obvious to me asante is an undercover eurasian nut like a couple of IDs on ES. He's only trolling this website with his posts. He's probably not an asante or even black (even if he keeps repeating that he is). He's phony and a troll. His posts can't be taken seriously.

[anansi]

Feb 5, 2014 12:14:58 GMT -5 amunratheultimate said:

I do not post a lot on this forum but it's obvious to me asante is an undercover eurasian nut like a couple of IDs on ES. He's only trolling this website with his posts. He's probably not an asante or even black (even if he keeps repeating that he is). He's phony and a troll. His posts can't be taken seriously.

He is neither a troll nor a phony as he truly believe in his ideas, we have conversed with each other for years,the fact that he have a different POV does not make him one, diverse opinions are welcome here this enables us to keep away from group think which is also dangerous , putting our diverse opinions and theories on the the table makes us stronger and learn better,that said it doesn't make him right in this.

[asante]

Feb 5, 2014 10:07:01 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

However, I think its a long stretch to claim the Yoruba came from Egypt.

Says who? The Yoruba say that they came from ancient Egypt and speak the language to boot. Recent examination of the relationship between the culture of the Yoruba and ancient Egypt further validate their claim:

There are many cultural practices that connect ancient Egyptians to the Yorubas and the new interpretation of the Oduduwa legend suggests that the Yorubas have originated or are influenced mainly by the Egyptians. The attestation of Egypt as the main influencer of the Yoruba culture made Egypt significant in the study of the history of the Yoruba people. Some writers are beginning to think that the ancient Egyptians were responsible for introducing and spreading many cultures amongst the Yorubas. As more Yorubas are tracing their origins and the origins of their culture to ancient Egypt, this research investigates whether the Egyptians were the originators and the main spreaders of the afterlife culture in Yorubaland. M. Agai, J. (2013, July 07). An investigation into the ancient egyptian cultural influences on the yorubas of nigeria. School of Religion, Philosophy and Classics, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Study

Contrary to ignorant and quite silly beliefs these are not claims that originated with "African Americans trying to steal other peoples history", this is the Yoruba (and all neighboring related groups) testament to their origins which they place specifically in ancient Egypt. Why are you so determined to undermine the Yorubas own claim on their origins in face of all of this evidence? Why is what should be a clear fact so blasphemous? This seems like more of an emotional reaction as opposed to genuine concern due to conflicting evidence.

The argument may make sense on paper, but not in real life.

A representation of an animated Djed Pillar:


A Kutito/Egungun ceremony in Porto Novo,Benin:



As you can see this isn't "paper" it's real life. Egungun, the Yoruba name of the ceremony means "bone, skeleton". In Kmt, the Djed pillar was considered as the backbone of the neter Ausar. There is ample evidence for mummification in traditional Africa. Félix Dubois reported it among Songhoi people, M.Delafosse among Baule(Akan) people of Ivory Coast, A.M.L Desplagnes among the Dogon and Mossi, J.C.C.Gomez among the Yoruba.

What more proof do you need?

#1: these traits originated with the peoples and cultures in East Africa. Some of these people migrated north taking those practices with them, some migrated west taking those practices with them as well. The ones who migrated north would contribute to the formation of the Egyptian culture, those who went west would form the proto Nok, Nok and yoruba culture.

Glad to see that you at least now acknowledge the fact that the M2 carrying, Niger-Congo, "true negroid" populations (us) made that northward migration from their Sudanese origins! This area of their Sudanese origins is "Nubia" (hence Pleistocene "Nubians"). Some of our M2 carrying ancestors obviously did remain in "Nubia". This northward migration into Egypt for us and the Afrisan speakers is dated to over 12,000 years ago. As shown in the citation of Christopher Ehret his unsupported East to West migration along the African Savannah is said to have occurred at this same time (12,000 years ago). The Nok civilization is only dated to around 1,000 BC (The ancient Egyptian Late Dynastic Period the same period when dramatic biological change occurred;

Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404.

)..... That huge time gap of nothingness (no evidence of our existence) in West Africa until the Nok civilization of Nigeria suddenly springing up in your theory is ridiculous, and subsequently the biological evidence correlates much more with the Exodus from Kush as indicated in the maps (around 1,500 BC). Thus the Exodus of our M2 lineage carrying, Niger-Congo speaking, "true Negro" ancestors from the Northeast of Africa to our contemporary locations throughout Equatorial Africa. The remaining M2 lineage carrying, likely Berber speaking, "True Negro" and sickle Cell carrying US further to the west of Egypt were then converted into the "Muslim" Arabian army during the Islamic expansion that would come to colonize and civilize the recent nomadic Germanic inhabitants of Western Europe for 7 centuries. Weren't most of those Berber North Africans (just about all whom looked looked like us) and now Muslims who retreated down into parts of West Africa where the populations continued to be Muslim? Didn't those African Muslims also build great West African civilizations like Mali and Songhai? 

I could see why early Western elites who felt the need to try to eliminate the memory of the proud history of our people. Why would you tell a slave or a people who you wish you feel subservient to your own any of this? Why would you expect for non blacks (who run everything as far as we're concerned) to rush to the floor to announce any of these facts? Don't be naive!  

Another explanation is that these ideas could have been transmitted along trade routes without either people having met each other. We see examples of this happening with trade between Asia and Europe.

Yes the Silk Road! The Moorish rulers of Europe/Arab Empire were the median that brought all of that knowledge and information into Europe from those distant regions. 

Egypt inherited a great deal of its culture and traditions from older cultures.

Yes I agree. Mathematics for one had to have made it's way northward from Zaire (the Congo) where it originated onto the Lower Nile Valley. The inhabitants who have always claimed an origins in this region of Central Africa are the Twa (Pygmies). The Twa are known to have contributed greatly to humans early understanding of sciences and arts. The Twa of course were a segment of ancient Egyptians society and religion. 

Bes (God of Dance)


Yoruba Child of Obatala Yoruba's Twa God with the same skull necklace and gaping mouth.

The practice of using head rests is still fund among remote peoples as far south as Kenya and by certain peoples in the Sahel if I'm not mistaken.

Peoples all over Africa wear broad collars. The Masai wear a variation of it. The Zulu do too. Is this proof that the Masai are descended from Egypt, or does it make more sense that these traditions and practices were introduced into Egypt by members of older cultures who migrated into what would become Egypt.

Do you not understand that they all say that they came from ancient Egypt? The Masai, Kalejin, Zulu (see below)

Zulu

Egyptian soldiers 




South Africa, the Great Lakes and West Africa the primary geographic genetic matches which are dominated by M2 lineage, Niger-Congo speaking, "true Negro" us. DNA evidence covers all of these groups claims does it not? But the actual Africans whose DNA validate their claims of ancient Egyptian descent are somehow wrong according to your way thinking. lol That's kind of audacious don't you think?

Why is it that Americans and Australians both speak English?

Because they were both "former" colonies of England lol.

If Egypt was comprised of people of various physical types, (which they were), why was it only the people with so called negro features who felt the need to migrate out of Egypt?

When was this ever stated or implied by me?

According to the National Geographic map you quote, M2 broke off from the parent M96 31 to 70,000 years ago.

The purpose of that map was to show the break off point of Dravidian Albinos to the North into Central Asia and their subsequent dispersal from Central Asia these haplogroup R carriers back migrated into northern India, East and parts of Southeast Asia, into the Americas with another population from Eastern Asia and of course the migration into Europe and parts of the middle East (Indo-Europeans). I thought that this map did a good job at showing this migration. Sorry to say that I didn't at all agree with what they had going on in Africa, and I think most will agree on that.

If proto Bantu people migrated into Egypt that must mean some of them stayed behind. Every single person in the group didn't leave. It's not so farfetched to believe that of those who stayed behind

Once again I agree and this region that some would have remained in was Nubia. The problem with your argument is that you are undermining that fact that Nile Valley culture and civilization was CONTINUOUS, which is why more liberal scholars are recognizing Egypt and Sudan as a cultural continuum. Egypt or Nubia (which is older).

So why would I be surprised to see a statue of someone with a wide nose of thick lips? Thick lips, thin lips, light skin, dark skin, they were all in Egypt, they were all part of the same families they were all the same people regardless of features.

Obviously I'm not arguing against indigenous black African diversity being apart of the Nile Valley. I do believe that said that WE ("true Negroes") comprised 1/3 of the Dynastic Egyptian populace, wouldn't that logically imply that the other 2/3's were mostly other African types? That means that physical diversity distinguished from our own unique type was also present and combined was more than our own unique "Negroid" type.

[asante]

Feb 5, 2014 12:14:58 GMT -5 amunratheultimate said:

I do not post a lot on this forum but it's obvious to me asante is an undercover eurasian nut like a couple of IDs on ES. He's only trolling this website with his posts. He's probably not an asante or even black (even if he keeps repeating that he is). He's phony and a troll. His posts can't be taken seriously.

I know of you and I was hoping to have good dialogue with you and was anticipating a response to this post, but it never came ... Now you're accusing a guy who is basing his theory largely on the works Diop and various other African scholars of being a "double agent"....



For who or what organization you tell me lol. Please get ya mind right!

[anansi]

Asante we will continue to talk pass each other for two main reasons you believe in racial typology but the folks involved in this conversation certainly do not, including myself,non calls himself a Negro or Negroid or any other "oid" or "Id" terms,these nomenclatures are employed by anti Black anti African sites like Stormfront it is essentially a racist Eurocentrist POV that belong in the 19th century along with Gliddon and Nott, Samuel Morton, Arthur de Gobineau and others who made those terms up, I for one cannot pick out a Bantu,a Nilo Saharan a Niger kordofanian an Afrasian in Brooklyn speaking with a NY accent dressed like any other New Yorker hanging out in a barber shop playing dominoes on a brownstone step bad mouthing their wives,or playing street ball.

Second main reason you are influence by Mike and   his obsession with Albinos or rather calling white people Albinos,lemme ask this..do you believe Africans especially below  the desert are culturally inferior and technologically backwards so much so that they haven't advance much beyond the  use of stone, are so inept that they never created a stable well functioning civilization worth a damn since they inhabited that continent and are thus doomed to failure for all times??..If not then why do you keep channeling Mike and his theories,for that is what he believes and has thus stated on numerous occasions,plus he is not above slight of hand using images of  continental Africans or their descendants  in Europe to buttress his pet theory of Black European nobles, Africans need not apply..if you beleive the above then oops I  pegged you wrong,but if not then you are cherry picking bad cherries from his garden.  

[asante]

Feb 6, 2014 7:33:21 GMT -5 anansi said:

Asante we will continue to talk pass each other for two main reasons

Wait what? lol The last time I checked I was anticipating your response to our discussion about this Nilotic migration from the Great Lakes into the ancient Sahara. Or did my last reply to you simply just prove the point that the Nilotic migration into the ancient Sahara did not involve M2 carrying, Niger-Congo speaking "true Negro" US, which is what your argument was largely resting on? Lets keep it 100!

you believe in racial typology

No. This has already been explained to you at the tail end of the last reply.

I for one cannot pick out a Bantu,a Nilo Saharan a Niger kordofanian an Afrasian in Brooklyn speaking with a NY accent dressed like any other New Yorker hanging out in a barber shop playing dominoes on a brownstone step bad mouthing their wives,or playing street ball.

So....You mean to tell me..... that you've been apart of the Egyptsearch community for close to or over a decade now and you cannot tell the difference between Yorubas or Wolof or Ashanti (example of US), Dinkas and Somalis were it not for their clothing...

---

Second main reason you are influence by Mike and   his obsession with Albinos or rather calling white people Albinos

Your problem is that you believe that Mike "made all of these things up", and subsequently you think that all of this information came from Mike. Diop and Ivan Van Sertima both maintained that the Europeans descend from a Central Asian population Albinos (with their signature Y-DNA haplogroup R). Now if you and some others would like to pretend like the examples below aren't mirror images for what you believe to be "PC" reasons (treating albinism as an insult) then that's on you and your understanding of humanities origins will ultimately suffer.




Study

Here are those same haplogroup R carrying Central Asian albino descendants in the Hindu Kush mountain area of Eastern Afghanistan and the Chitral area of Pakistan as a result of the "Aryan" (the popular name given to this population base) back migration into northern India (now Pakistan).:




Common sense time. Now if you want to believe the "adaption" argument then please explain how these pale white populations came from Central Asia (a region with HIGH UV exposure). Adaption does not explain their bright eye colors or red/blond hair either, which are classic characteristics of albinism (red hair = type 2 Albinism). Why are the ARCTIC cold adapted Eskimos still brown skinned for the most part (though Central Asian Albinos did also migrate into the Americas (primarily North America) along with a STILL brown skinned "Asian" population)? That fish diet argument that they tried to give is utterly retarded, as it implies that fish was not a stable in the diet of later white Europeans. 





Who dominated Western Europe before this migration of the ancestors of contemporary white Europeans (Germanic tribes and the earlier Hellenes which was the first wave that brought "whites" into parts of Greece-Rome/southern Europe and the Levant as described in Ricaut 2008)? We know that the populations of southern Europe were the result of the northward expansion of black (US "negroid" sickle cell carriers and Afrisan E1b1 carriers) neolithic farmers who originated from the Natufanians peoples of Palestine. 

In Book 4 - MELPOMENE:The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-118 A.D.) said this about them: For my own part, I agree with those who think that the tribes of Germany are free from all taint of intermarriages with foreign nations, and that they appear as a distinct, unmixed race, like none but themselves. Hence, too, the same physical peculiarities throughout so vast a population. All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. They are less able to bear laborious work. Heat and thirst they cannot in the least endure; to cold and hunger their climate and their soil inure them."

You do know that STONEHENGE (in England) predates this migration right, but is predated by the Western desert STONEHENGE (Napta Playa)? Someone had to have been there. Use your common sense and read those old journals on page 3 which explains WHO these people were exactly. 

in Europe to buttress his pet theory of Black European nobles

lol Again your problem is that you think that these revelations originated with Mike11 as you are implying. Up until relatively recently I felt the same way about Mike. Then one day an old man (in real life) told me to never overlook what someone is saying just because of a perceived ideology, so I did my own reading on these subjects. Needless to say where I stand:



OUR unique skull shape deemed "true Negroid" 

compared to

^^ The pattern ultimately descend from black African populations (distinct from us) and is still sported by those distinct unmixed black African groups. There the term "Caucasian" therefore need not apply to describe the traits of this truly "African" variation. 





If you want to say that these depictions of above (of which there are hundreds if not thousands) don't need an explanation as to how these blacks got into Europe then that's on you. Or are these broad featured blacks apart of "indigenous Europe diversity" lol?