How do we know North Africa was always Black

[forty2tribes]

Apr 4, 2016 15:17:12 GMT -5 melanitex said:

Im a matter of fact I do have a linguistics questions if the Ancient Egyptians came from inner Africa (Nubia/Sudan) then why aren't there any links of Ancient Egyptian language to Niger Congo or Nilo Saharan languages particularly Nilo Saharan languages?

Also the Copts are suppose to be the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians right? In a matter of fact they are most likely to carry the Akhenanten gene according to website DNA Consultants. But if you look at the Egyptian Copts on average they are light to medium brown skinned, not dark brown or black. Why would it be out of the question to suggest there having been similar looking people concentrated in Lower and Middle Egypt during Ancient times?

There are plenty links to other languages. Ancient Egyptian words and concepts are all over Africa. Egyptian is the latin of Africa. Nobody has done a more unbiased and thorough job classifying African language families than Jean Claude Mboli and according to him none of those language families were justifiable in the first place. 

The Copts were mixed


Have you heard this recollection?

Volney, who travelled in Egypt between +1783 and +1785, i.e. at the peak period of negro slavery, and made the following observations on the true Egyptian race, the same which produced the Pharaohs, namely the Copts:

All of them are puffy-faced, heavy eyed and thick-lipped, in a word, real mulatto faces. I was tempted to attribute this to the climate until, on visiting the Sphinx, the look of it gave me the clue to the egnima. Beholding that head characteristically Negro in all its features, I recalled the well-known passage of Herodotus which reads: 'For my part I consider the Colchoi are a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black skinned and kinky-haired.'

Now was in 1785 fast forward to 1885 and can you find the Copts?

[forty2tribes]

That was 1885

Consider that some Copts today look like...


Show me group depictions of ancient Egyptians with that light of skin and I'll show you spirits. 

[Deleted]

There's plenty of ancient Egyptian art where the skin tones are too light to be 'black':

[melanitex]

Apr 5, 2016 14:14:16 GMT -5 forty2tribes said:

Apr 4, 2016 15:17:12 GMT -5 melanitex said:

Im a matter of fact I do have a linguistics questions if the Ancient Egyptians came from inner Africa (Nubia/Sudan) then why aren't there any links of Ancient Egyptian language to Niger Congo or Nilo Saharan languages particularly Nilo Saharan languages?

Also the Copts are suppose to be the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians right? In a matter of fact they are most likely to carry the Akhenanten gene according to website DNA Consultants. But if you look at the Egyptian Copts on average they are light to medium brown skinned, not dark brown or black. Why would it be out of the question to suggest there having been similar looking people concentrated in Lower and Middle Egypt during Ancient times?

There are plenty links to other languages. Ancient Egyptian words and concepts are all over Africa. Egyptian is the latin of Africa. Nobody has done a more unbiased and thorough job classifying African language families than Jean Claude Mboli and according to him none of those language families were justifiable in the first place. 

The Copts were mixed


Have you heard this recollection?

Volney, who travelled in Egypt between +1783 and +1785, i.e. at the peak period of negro slavery, and made the following observations on the true Egyptian race, the same which produced the Pharaohs, namely the Copts:

All of them are puffy-faced, heavy eyed and thick-lipped, in a word, real mulatto faces. I was tempted to attribute this to the climate until, on visiting the Sphinx, the look of it gave me the clue to the egnima. Beholding that head characteristically Negro in all its features, I recalled the well-known passage of Herodotus which reads: 'For my part I consider the Colchoi are a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black skinned and kinky-haired.'

Now was in 1785 fast forward to 1885 and can you find the Copts?

Can you provide direct examples of these linguistic links to the rest of inner Africa since you say there are so many? Thnx.

Also if the Copts of present are mixed as you say then why did they succumb to racial admixture while being able to preserve their language much longer then the darker people of Southern (Upper Egypt) Egypt whom im guessing you would say are less mixed. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Also Frank Snowden notes that the classical Greco-Roman scholars made distinctions between the Ancient Ethiopian (Nubians) and Ancient Egyptians.

Quote from Snowden:

"Diop not only distorts his classical sources but also omits references to Greek and Latin authors who specifically call attention to the physical differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians."

My question in reference to this if the two and it's people were one in the same and if it was Nubia that birthed Egypt then why did the two groups look so different enough for Ancient Greek and Roman scholars to point out the difference?

[forty2tribes]

Apr 5, 2016 16:30:15 GMT -5 @crows said:

There's plenty of ancient Egyptian art where the skin tones are too light to be 'black':

The only example that is too light to be 'black' is the last which screams forgery because its so different from every other couples portrait. Charles Barkley is 80% inner African and he is lighter than most of them. You have found maybe two people that are as light as modern Egyptians... That is not representative of the bulk of the art.

The typical is...



on the walls



on the models.

Its far easier to find black Greeks be it ubiquitous style



 
or the more apparent. 

[forty2tribes]

Apr 5, 2016 16:50:36 GMT -5 melanitex said:

Can you provide direct examples of these linguistic links to the rest of inner Africa since you say there are so many? Thnx.

Also if the Copts of present are mixed as you say then why did they succumb to racial admixture while being able to preserve their language much longer then the darker people of Southern (Upper Egypt) Egypt whom im guessing you would say are less mixed. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Also Frank Snowden notes that the classical Greco-Roman scholars made distinctions between the Ancient Ethiopian (Nubians) and Ancient Egyptians.

Quote from Snowden:

"Diop not only distorts his classical sources but also omits references to Greek and Latin authors who specifically call attention to the physical differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians."

My question in reference to this if the two and it's people were one in the same and if it was Nubia that birthed Egypt then why did the two groups look so different enough for Ancient Greek and Roman scholars to point out the difference?

With Diop its Wolof, D. Toukam its Bamilike, Catherine Acholonu its Igbo, and Yoruba, Odwirafo its Akan, Mboli its Sango and the 13 or so other languages he used in his recon, Asar Imhotep Ciluba and others, dr Kipkoech its Kalenjin. Ive seen example from many of them and others I forgot about. I think you can google all of them and find examples except for Toukam and Mboli because they dont have anything in English. Shame because Mboli's work is the most thorough. 

I don't follow your logic with Coptic. Its quite divergent from the languages of Middle Egypt which is divergent from the languages of Old Egypt. People who really want to understand Ancient Egyptian languages have to go to other African languages. Using Coptic as a defacto translation tool has stifled Egyptology. Asar Imhotep has many published studies and a few books where he uses many African languages to understand what Egyptian words sounded like and meant. In many cases using Coptic or any one similar language be it Wolof or Kalenjin would not suffice.

 
Frank Snowden makes a mistake many 'classical' egyptian scholars made. There was no such country called Nubia during the time of Egypt. Its a Roman word used as a pet name for the people near Nub which was in Egypt. The two groups are made to artificially look different. Example




Found in Egypt yet called Nubian because of their skin nothing else



Author of a popular copy of Pert em Heru. Buried in the Valley of Kings in Egypt yet called a Nubian because of his skin.



Those above are Egyptians 

Snowden is also incorrect about the reported differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians.

Its not just Herodotus 

Aristotle: "Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two."



Lucian citing two Greek writers...

Lycinus (describing a young Egyptian): 'This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin. . . his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman.'

Timolaus: 'But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place.'



Apollodorus: "Aegyptos conquered the country of the blackfooted ones and called it Egypt after himself"



Ammianus Marcellinus: "the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look."



Diodorus Siculus: "The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians `are one of their colonies,35 which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent."



Aeschylus in his 'Suppliant Maidens':

Yet if this may not be,

We [Dainades], the dark race sun-smitten, we

Will speed with suppliant wands

To Zeus who rules below, with hospitable hands

Who welcomes all the dead from all the lands:

Yea, by our own hands strangled, we will go,

Spurned by Olympian gods, unto the gods below!

. . .

O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,

That ye have share in this our Argive race.

No likeness of our country do ye bear,

But semblance as of Libyan womankind.

Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;

Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,

Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.

And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids

Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,

And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing

Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;

And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids

Called (Gorgon) Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,

I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,

That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.

...

The Danaids upon seeing their Aegyptiad cousins approaching in their ships: 'I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics' and 'In ships, stout-timbered and dark-prowed, they have sailed here, attended by a mighty black host, and in their wrath overtaken us'


This is called correlating evidence. 


When the Kushites or socalled Nubians of the 25th dynasty took power they looked no more or less like the previous rulers. 

[zarahan]

XYZ says:
Did you read what was posted above or are you here to waste time. What is an Arab "type" and a Medit "type'?

LOL he isn't going to "rephrase". You can tell from his "innocent" questions routine
that he is setting up a series of strawmen. And it is interesting how he shifts the goalposts
when pressed to define his direct or implied assumptions. Let's look at 5 of his tactics:


THE IMPOSSIBLE" DREAM..
He says:
'I mean resembling the Mediterinean type and Arab looking people of North Africa and Egypt today....
Why would it be impossble for these people not to be present during Pre Dynastic Egyptian time line and culture or were they?

But who says or said it is "impossible" for "Mediterranean type and Arab looking" people
to be in Egypt or North Africa? ANd why would such looks be beyond indigenous African phenotyipic
diversity- the highest in the world, as demonstrated numerous times by scholars?

And "Mediterranean" looking types are part of indigenous African diversity. Yes Africans
can and do have narrow noses and brown skin, as part of that diversity. It is nothing special.
And no less than Guiseppi Sergi said that "Mediterraneans" formed part of a "Eurafrican" racial mix,
having its origin in Africa. In modern parlance some would call them "mulattoes" or "mixed race."- quote:

"This human species, with cranial and facial characters thus well determined,
I call Eurafrican; and this because, having had its origin in Africa, where it
is still represented by many peoples, it has been diffused from prehistoric times
in Europe... The Eurafrican species thus falls into three races: the African,
with red-brown and black pigmentation.. Thus the Mediterranean stock is a race
or variety of the Eurafrican species."
--G. Sergi '

Thus called "Medits" depending on the writer consulted like Sergi, are themselves part "negro."

------------------------------------------------------------------------


2- THE SHIFTING GOALPOST

And notice how he keeps shifting the goalposts when you question his assumptions.
He said earlier:
[b']I mean resembling the Mediterinean type and Arab looking people of North Africa and Egypt today....Why would it be impossble for these people not to be present during Pre Dynastic Egyptian time line and culture or were they?[/b]

^^Now he shifts to "the majotity of people who occupy North Egypt Tunisia and Arabia today."

as a way to duck around the question and avoid clearly defining his assumptions.

--------------------------------------------------------

3- THE NEGRO FREE NORTH AFRICA- that turns out not to be "negro free" after all..

He uses Tunisia as an example to set up his claim, but unfortunately for him, the
Africans are well in place in Tunisia and have been there a long time, way before any
Arabs showed up.

For example: While virtually all studies of Tunisia point to recent Arab domination since the Islamic
era, a 2011 study of Tunisians demonstrated the clear presence of numerous African DNA markers. QUOTE:

"To begin with, there is a sub-Saharan Africa contribution comprising all L mtDNA lineages (34.1%)
and the Y-chromosome haplogroups A, B, E-M96, E-M2 and E-M35 (16.3%). There isalso a native North African
component represented by the U6 and M1mtDNA haplogroups (8.2%) and by the Y-chromosome E-M81 haplogroup (48.2%)."
--Rosa Fregel. 2011.Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome microstructure in Tunisia. JrlHuGen. 56


But the DNA evidence also points to ancient population data, well within indigenous African provenance
and long before any Arabs showed up.
QUOte:
"Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa."
-- Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)


And a third strand of data shows that African provenance is of ancient lineage in Tunisia.
QUOTE:

"The famous Asselar skull from north of Timbuktu, which is considered to be negro, is from this general period, and Alimen also indicates that some of the skeletal material associated with the Capsian culture in Tunisia has Negroid affinities. In addition to this skeletal material, many of the early rock paintings in the Sahara seem to depict Negroid peoples."
Yehudi Cohen. 2011. Human Adaptation: The Biosocial Background. 239-242


Thus on 3 counts, the peoples of Tunisia are well linked to Africa, in ancient times as
well as modern. They cannot be defined primarily by the Arab invaders of the Islamic era.
When the whole picture is looked at, Arabs are merely one slice of the Tunisian mix.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


4- THE TIME WASTING REQUEST FOR SPOON FEEDING EVEN THOUGH THE DATA IS READILY AVAILABLE HERE
AND HAS BEEN REPEATED ACROSS MULTIPLE THREADS

He then tries a third diversionary line with this- using his time wasting "loaded question" method:
When you say AE came in all varations like all Africans can you show me some evidence that Africans can vary greatly in color abd phenotype without any kind of European or Asiatic admixture.

But such elementary information on African diversity has been posted here dozens of times
Relethford (2000) for example. He well knows this but his time-wasting tactic is to pretend
"not to know". Oh I am "just asking"- as if this is fooling anyone. OK, if you are "just asking"
no one will spoon feed you. Go to the basic database thread and see the data there.

egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/15/basic-database-nile-valley-studies

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



5- THE "TRUE NEGRO" DODGE- REPHRASED AS "PURELY AFRICAN" here but same thing

ANother time-wasting diversion:
Also can any one point to any archeology that would show the pre dynastic Egyptians civilizations as purely African and not coming from Southern Europe to Lower Egypt or from West Asia

Notice the fake setup question, as if anyone claims Egypt never had nomads, war captives
merchants, etc from elsewhere.

And notice how he does not define "purely African."
What exactly is "purely African" - and what would be the features of a "pure African"?
He will duck and dodge around this for the next few posts and shift the goalposts.


Forty2tribes says:
Show me group depictions of ancient Egyptians with that light of skin and I'll show you spirits.

Looks like you are setting up a strawman that can later be "refuted." As already shown here
dozens of times, Africans have the highest skin color diversity. Go to the basic database
and see the detailed info there. The category "black" for example always includes brown skin
in different shades. No one is being fooled by the setup.

egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/15/basic-database-nile-valley-studies







Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/14040/edit#ixzz45BucqUQF

[melanitex]

I just want to thank some of the other posters who genuinely tried to help me with some of my questions

Zaharan I have something to say to you sir, What the fu*k  is your problem dude? Who messed up your tampon? If your not going to help or answer my questions then fu*k  off prick....


Anyway, as I was saying, I am still looking for evidence that African variability can differ enough so that indigenous Africans can look like the Mediterranean and Arab type of people light skinned who you see in Egypt, Tunisia today. If anyone is willing to offer me that kind of help it would be most grateful.

[anastasiaescrava]

Apr 5, 2016 0:20:58 GMT -5 melanitex said:

Apr 4, 2016 15:51:31 GMT -5 obsidian71 said:

Theofile Obenga has been talking and writing about AE linguistics not fitting within the Afro-Asiatic phylum for over 40 years.  He and Diop at the 1974 Unesco symposium outlined the affinities of Ancient Egyptians words with that of Wolof and Yoruba languages.  As for the Copts i'll leave that to Champollion  "In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the Ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that successfully dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race." Egypte Ancienne -Champollion

I am somewhat familiar with Theophile Obenga I have seen his Negro Egyptian Linguistics Diagram. The issue I have with Obenga is he classifies Egyptian Language as a language family called "Negro Egyptian" with whom other African languages come from like Wolof Yourba Hausa etc etc The problem with this I have is Ancient Egyptian was a spoken language not a language family like Niger Congo or Nilo Saharan but a spoken language like Wolof or Twi

Also on the point of the Copts. Champollion lived during the 18th Century how would he know if the Copts greatly differed from the Ancient Egyptians or not? What ancient source is he drawing from to make his assertion that the Copts "characteristics and features" differed to that of Ancient Egyptians?

link










If you read the slides it mentions that African Genetics are the most diverse in the world, so why would it be impossible to produce the "meds" and "Arab" look?
Second, Alot of people think East Africans are mixed with Arabs and Europeans because of their looks, but it's their own indigenous genes that gives them that look.
So that right there answers the "Arab" and "Med" look.

[anastasiaescrava]

If these folks were lighter/straight hair, alot people would confuse them for Arabs but they Africans.

[djoser-xyyman]

Now, with language like that ...a restriction is in order. lol! he still did not understand what Sergi stated. Quote" EurAfrican with Origin in Africa". These "features" are all African. See Relethord et al for color variation.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Hope no one minds this reminder.

* Morocco
* Algeria
* Tunisia
* Libya
* Egypt
* Palestine
* Israel
* Lebanon
* Syria

are each one and all Mediterranean.
These countries are African by both
geology and original language if not
by geography.

The earliest inhabitants during the
Ice Age, the Maurusians, were too
long ago to contribute much in
looks to today's people.

When northern Africa greened there
were 'Sudanese' moving into Sahara
as their savannah expanded. Also,
the near coastal people of the time
physical anthropology labeled them
first-Mediterranean and admits they
had attenuated African features. Note
Lavender&Yellow expand north, the
environment of 'Sudanese' peoples;
and Watermelon&Yellow appear then
grow southward with Maurusian relic
and newer first-Mediterranean folk.











The largest extant indigenous language
group of the region is Berber (Tamazight).
Behrens proposed northwest Sudan for its
birthplace. It is comparatively young and
spread to Temeh-land and Aïr. From Aïr
to Mauritania and the Maghreb. Coming
from Libya into Lower Egypt (Tehenu).


Not only in touch with Sudani-Saharo
civilization, Mediterranean coastal
Africans moved and traded across
both the Gibraltar and Sicily straits
during prehistory before the Libyan-
Aegean-Levantine sub-Mediterranean
islands and Sea Peoples era contacts.

Prehistoric times southern Europe, the
north Mediterranean, its ancient DNA
reveals L1 and L2 haplogroups.

[thamm1]

What is your thoughts on this video?

"We Wuz Kings: The Reality Plaguing Racist Black People In Denial Trying To Steal Egyptian History"

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ePJAL4qwSjo

[anansi]

Apr 10, 2016 10:04:05 GMT -5 thamm1 said:

What is your thoughts on this video?

"We Wuz Kings: The Reality Plaguing Racist Black People In Denial Trying To Steal Egyptian History"

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ePJAL4qvSjo

Why should anyone doing any sorta serious research give a hoot and a holla about some random you tube vid, denying ancient Kemetian population biocultural links to the rest of Africa,such vids are a dime a dozen.


But here^^ since you like random vids from who the hell cares instead of the volumes of studies that is spread throughout this site try these out for size, and Black ppl do not need to steal what they created.

[zarahan]

Lol the distorters think they are doing something significant with dey pitiful 3000 hits. LMAO.
And they think they are doing something significant by repeating different versions
of the video, but it is STILL pitiful.



They can try to run as much bogus propaganda as they want on Youtube and they
still fail. They can try equally bogus Wikipedia "stealth" edits or sandbagging and that
doesn't make a dime's worth of diff either. We already have the database of credible facts
and scholars, plus independent blogs and sites, plus guys posting info on forums from Topix,
to Nairaland, to Sudannet, VOlcno, Ytube, even gamer forums, and more with good Google representation.
And all the above doesn't not even include ES.

Although more careful study and application needs to be done out there by some folks using this
data, a whole new generation of college kids and even "street" guys are getting the word. The
days when the distorters could run an easy propaganda train are gone. Even Mary Lefkowitz and key helpers have
had to come around, and those who could run that easy train in the late 1980s and early 1990s are
obsolete, and have failed on several counts.

So let them waste time doing yet another video. We will still be laughing.


egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/15/basic-database-nile-valley-studies