How do we know North Africa was always Black

[clouddesignc7]

So, once again,

There are ancient Kemetian (Ancient Egyptian) depictions of black and white Berbers / Maghrebians.

Therefore, the Maghreb / North Africa outside of Egypt was mixed in ancient times, meaning it was less light than it is today, at least half blacks. So a third "Mediterranean" Eurasian looking and over a third mixed caramel complected around. There are Islamic depictions of mixed North Africans going back to the 16th to 18th Centuries infact.

[melanitex]

Oct 22, 2016 10:17:15 GMT -5 clouddesignc7 said:

So, once again,

There are ancient Kemetian (Ancient Egyptian) depictions of black and white Berbers / Maghrebians.

Therefore, the Maghreb / North Africa outside of Egypt was mixed in ancient times, meaning it was less light than it is today, at least half blacks. So a third "Mediterranean" Eurasian looking and over a third mixed caramel complected around. There are Islamic depictions of mixed North Africans going back to the 16th to 18th Centuries infact.

If the Berbers have a mostly African Y-DNA doesn't that means at one point they must of all been African (Black) before absorbing significant European/Western Asian MTDNA?? 

Also those depictions of White Maghrebians? aren't those just reproductions usually used for books? I have seen the photos of the actual tomb panting and they look much darker then what we see in those books.  We must be careful when looking at reproductions. I remember reading how a South African White female painter who visited Egypt and saw the tombs first hand herself STILL decided to paint the Egyptians as completely White in her artwork. Winifred Brunton I think her name was.

Also I was unaware there were so many White Touregs I thought they were almost all entirely Black....where do those light/white looking Touregs live? and do they have the same origin as the Black Tuaregs you also showed?


Thnx again

[anansi]

Oct 22, 2016 3:00:55 GMT -5 amazigh said:

Most Berbers are white skin

and There is a minority Berbers are blacks


*Inscriptions from the Tassili Mountains( Berbers (White blonds)

Do you know the above was faked by Henery Lahote's team as a way of discrediting him don't you, this have mislead other researchers for decades and Mathilda and company jumped all over those fakes like hot cakes.

Now here comes the really shocking news: according to recent published studies, Henri Lhote's team, or one or more member(s) of his team, apparently faked two (or more) of the images published in his book, like those Egyptian-like calendar goddesses, which continued to appear in his book right down to the 1970s. The following composition, which I have redrawn by hand (colours are not real) to illustrate the Egyptian style, shows some of the images vividly, or vandalisingly, invented by Lhote's team:

"Our little goddesses with the birds' heads must belong to an historical period . . . to 1200 B.C. We know that at this time the Libyans of the Fezzan were constantly at war with the Egyptians. Indeed, the Libyans attempted to conquer the Nile Valley" (Henri Lhote, Frescoes, 1959, pp 69 - 72).

It remains a puzzle to realise which Fezzan-Egyptian wars [professor] Lhote was openly referring to. There are no such wars in recorded history, let alone "constant wars", that involved the inhabitants of Fezzan and the ancient Egyptians. Why invent pictures, publish them as real prehistoric cave paintings, and then supplant them with fake history?
Vandalized & defaced Rock Art.

And the modern Tuarg you posted above maybe "white" where you are from ,but will surly be black or at the very least called people of color in the west.

Ibn Butlan, in fact was fond of commenting on the attributes of females that had been brought into Iraq to serve as slave concubines. He writes of the Berber women whom he considered the ideal slave woman, “Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience…” (Brozny, 2005, p. 303).
These are the same Kutama settled in Kabylia with the Vandals, among others, that laid the foundations for the Fatimid Caliphate. They are considered the Ucutamani, (Gazeau, V. Baudin, P., Mod'ran, Y., 2008, p. 113), and are probably the Muctunia Manus in the Tripolitania desert of earlier records.
As Ibn Butlan also describes the Beja women of Nubia as “golden colored” (Brozyna, p. 304), we can be certain what his description of “black” meant for the Berber women.
The 6th century Isidore was just one of several known writers of his time and before who spoke in colorful terms in reference to the “white” Gauls who he contrasts to the Moors or Mauri, “black as night” (Barney, S. A., 2007, p. 386). As one specialist in late antiquity writes: “Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or 'Moor' had become an adjective in Latin, 'for the Greeks call "black” mauron'. In Isidore's day, Moors were black by definition” (Conant, J., 2012, p. 269).
Further west, the Byzantine poet Corippus wrote about inhabitants of Byzacena in Tunisia south of Carthage that were part of the confederation under the Berber leader Antalas fighting against the Byzantines. On several occasions Corrippus “refers to Moors both individually and collectively as being ‘black’ or ‘dark’ (Niger), and even goes so far as to liken one Moorish woman and her children to a raven and its chicks” (Conant, 2012, p. 269). (Moorish women were paraded through the streets of Carthage by the Byzantines.)

Afro-Asitica
I recommend this link because it come with lots of references to what ancient and medieval writers view on the people now called Amazigh or Berbers,Do I believe that most lite-skinned Berbers would consider themselves Black by today's definition, perhaps not as colorism/shadism has taken hold of a lot of them as it does in the west among some diasporean people of African ancestry, and for the same reason, this linkage with the color black and slavery.

[melanitex]

Oct 23, 2016 1:09:33 GMT -5 anansi said:

Oct 22, 2016 3:00:55 GMT -5 amazigh said:

Most Berbers are white skin

and There is a minority Berbers are blacks


*Inscriptions from the Tassili Mountains( Berbers (White blonds)

Do you know the above was faked by Henery Lahote's team as a way of discrediting him don't you, this have mislead other researchers for decades and Mathilda and company jumped all over those fakes like hot cakes.

Now here comes the really shocking news: according to recent published studies, Henri Lhote's team, or one or more member(s) of his team, apparently faked two (or more) of the images published in his book, like those Egyptian-like calendar goddesses, which continued to appear in his book right down to the 1970s. The following composition, which I have redrawn by hand (colours are not real) to illustrate the Egyptian style, shows some of the images vividly, or vandalisingly, invented by Lhote's team:

"Our little goddesses with the birds' heads must belong to an historical period . . . to 1200 B.C. We know that at this time the Libyans of the Fezzan were constantly at war with the Egyptians. Indeed, the Libyans attempted to conquer the Nile Valley" (Henri Lhote, Frescoes, 1959, pp 69 - 72).

It remains a puzzle to realise which Fezzan-Egyptian wars [professor] Lhote was openly referring to. There are no such wars in recorded history, let alone "constant wars", that involved the inhabitants of Fezzan and the ancient Egyptians. Why invent pictures, publish them as real prehistoric cave paintings, and then supplant them with fake history?
Vandalized & defaced Rock Art.

And the modern Tuarg you posted above maybe "white" where you are from ,but will surly be black or at the very least called people of color in the west.

Ibn Butlan, in fact was fond of commenting on the attributes of females that had been brought into Iraq to serve as slave concubines. He writes of the Berber women whom he considered the ideal slave woman, “Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience…” (Brozny, 2005, p. 303).
These are the same Kutama settled in Kabylia with the Vandals, among others, that laid the foundations for the Fatimid Caliphate. They are considered the Ucutamani, (Gazeau, V. Baudin, P., Mod'ran, Y., 2008, p. 113), and are probably the Muctunia Manus in the Tripolitania desert of earlier records.
As Ibn Butlan also describes the Beja women of Nubia as “golden colored” (Brozyna, p. 304), we can be certain what his description of “black” meant for the Berber women.
The 6th century Isidore was just one of several known writers of his time and before who spoke in colorful terms in reference to the “white” Gauls who he contrasts to the Moors or Mauri, “black as night” (Barney, S. A., 2007, p. 386). As one specialist in late antiquity writes: “Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or 'Moor' had become an adjective in Latin, 'for the Greeks call "black” mauron'. In Isidore's day, Moors were black by definition” (Conant, J., 2012, p. 269).
Further west, the Byzantine poet Corippus wrote about inhabitants of Byzacena in Tunisia south of Carthage that were part of the confederation under the Berber leader Antalas fighting against the Byzantines. On several occasions Corrippus “refers to Moors both individually and collectively as being ‘black’ or ‘dark’ (Niger), and even goes so far as to liken one Moorish woman and her children to a raven and its chicks” (Conant, 2012, p. 269). (Moorish women were paraded through the streets of Carthage by the Byzantines.)

Afro-Asitica
I recommend this link because it come with lots of references to what ancient and medieval writers view on the people now called Amazigh or Berbers,Do I believe that most lite-skinned Berbers would consider themselves Black by today's definition, perhaps not as colorism/shadism has taken hold of a lot of them as it does in the west among some diasporean people of African ancestry, and for the same reason, this linkage with the color black and slavery.

Anasi I know this wasn't to me but are you saying Henri Lahote told the truth and it was his team that wanted to discredit him? If so what did Lahote say or document to make his team want to discredit him?

[amazigh]

Berbers prehistoric (white skin and blonde)


Caves

[amazigh]

Oct 23, 2016 4:45:09 GMT -5 amazigh said:

Berbers prehistoric (white skin and blonde)


Caves of TASSILI-N-AJJER

[anansi]

Anasi I know this wasn't to me but are you saying Henri Lahote told the truth and it was his team that wanted to discredit him? If so what did Lahote say or document to make his team want to discredit him?

I am not certain some personal issues maybe he wasn't a nice boss perhaps,, oh btw vist the link and look at the damage done presumably by tourist,to defaced art and history in quite inaccessible regions of Africa, thousands of miles from the home countries.

[amazigh]

*Inscriptions from the Tassili Mountains(sahara) ( Berbers (White blonds)

[clouddesignc7]

Oct 22, 2016 10:34:04 GMT -5 melanitex said:

Also those depictions of White Maghrebians? aren't those just reproductions usually used for books? I have seen the photos of the actual tomb panting and they look much darker then what we see in those books.  We must be careful when looking at reproductions.

They're usually accepted as legitimate tomb paintings.

I remember reading how a South African White female painter who visited Egypt and saw the tombs first hand herself STILL decided to paint the Egyptians as completely White in her artwork. Winifred Brunton I think her name was.

WOW!!!!!

Also I was unaware there were so many White Touregs I thought they were almost all entirely Black....where do those light/white looking Touregs live?

The Tuareg are black and mixed, so some white Tuareg don't surprise me. Most are not white though.

and do they have the same origin as the Black Tuaregs you also showed?

They had European females slaves clear down to Mali. It's mostly probably maternal. Their European ancestry.

Thnx again

Your welcome.