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Post by history91 on Oct 3, 2016 8:33:09 GMT -5
When and where did this mutation take place? I've heard E1b1b is a lot older than E1b1a.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Oct 5, 2016 11:25:48 GMT -5
E1b1a and E1b1b are sister lineages, they both derive from E1b1 / aka the PN2 clade, and so both are PN2 clade lineages.
The PN2 clade is a Pan-African clade.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Nov 14, 2016 8:29:36 GMT -5
E1b1a aka E-M2 has its highest frequency in West Africa and is most diverse in West Africa and so is thought to originate there but more recent evidence points to it originating in East Africa -- they found some E1b1a in Ethiopia / East Africa.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Dec 9, 2016 12:51:48 GMT -5
He is correct. E1b1b and E1b1a are siblings. One did not come or mutate from the other. Siblings meaning of the same "parent". That is why E1b1b are as much African as E1b1a which includes both their subclades.
As for the diversity. I have neever seen and publish paper which states it is more diverse in West Africa. Sources?
As for the age. Yes, E1b1b is much much much older than Eb1ba.
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Post by zarahan on Dec 9, 2016 22:26:44 GMT -5
Yes and both lineages originated in "sub-Saharan" Africa. E1b1b is "sub-Saharan"..  |
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Post by history91 on Dec 20, 2016 20:11:22 GMT -5
Yes and both lineages originated in "sub-Saharan" Africa. E1b1b is "sub-Saharan".. E1b1b subsaharan origin? How? |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Dec 21, 2016 10:39:32 GMT -5
Geography lesson. Sudan and Ethiopia IS SSA. Also West Africa is West Africa.  Yes and both lineages originated in "sub-Saharan" Africa. E1b1b is "sub-Saharan".. E1b1b subsaharan origin? How? |
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Post by history91 on Dec 21, 2016 12:41:08 GMT -5
 The reason why I asked because I was told that Ethiopians do not have African origins. I was presented with this meme. |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Dec 21, 2016 15:59:42 GMT -5
I assume you have done some reading. And you have a decent level of reading and comprehending. Pull out a map of the earth and look at where Ethiopia is. Second, do you know that some of the oldest anthropological finding on human origins is IN Ethiopia. Third, Do you know some of the most ancient human genetic lineage is found IN Ethiopia? So what are you and/or they are "memeing" about?
Do what I do.....ignore people who don't make sense and bring you down to gutter level. Take on the more astute and knowledgeable. Ignore fools....as much as possible
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Jan 12, 2017 7:58:21 GMT -5
E1b1a and E1b1b are sister lineages, they both derive from E1b1 / aka the PN2 clade, and so both are PN2 clade lineages. The PN2 clade is a Pan-African clade. These two lineages (E1b1a & E1b1b) are PN2 clade lineages, and the PN2 clade is Pan-African. E1b1a & E1b1b are both found in sub-Saharan Africa, E1b1b originated there and spread to North Africa, E1b1a originated in West Africa and spread to Central and Southern Africa. The PN2 clade accounts for over 70% of the male lineages in Africa. As for the diversity. I have neever seen and publish paper which states it is more diverse in West Africa. Sources? It is more diverse in West than in Central and South Africa, the Bantu came and spread from West Africa (as do Bantu languages descend from Niger-Congo which is West African), not the other way around. Rosa et al 2007: "The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky.
[...]
The E3a*-M2 microsatellite profiles of Mandenka and Balanta are the most diverse among our data (RST average gene diversity, see Additional file 2) and attest to an earlier origin or more pronounced expansion. Since the corresponding parameter in Fulbe is less diverse we consider this to signal either a genetic bottleneck or their more recent expansion and late arrival in the West. The data are consistent with the less diverse E3a-M2 profile in Central and South Africans (data not shown).
[...]
The predominance and high diversity of haplogroup E3a*-M2 suggests a demographic expansion in the equatorial western fringe [of West Africa / Guinea Bissau] , possibly supported by a local agricultural center. The paternal pool of the Mandenka and Balanta displays evidence of a particularly marked population growth among the Guineans, possibly reflecting the demographic effects of the agriculturalist lifestyle and their putative relationship to the people that introduced early cultivation practices into West Africa."- Rosa et al 2007, Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective |
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Jan 12, 2017 8:23:14 GMT -5
E1b1b subsaharan origin? How? It originates there. It's found so far in highest percentages in Borana from Kenya, and so could've originated anywhere from Kenya to Ethiopia. It's found in its highest percentages in Eastern and Southern Africa.(  E1b1b aka E3b: "...Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by ***immigrant** farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001)." - Cruciani et al. 2004 E1b1b aka E-M215 / E-M35: "The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the
Middle East into Europe is also represented in
the NRY data, although suggesting a relatively
localized area of impact. As mentioned before in
relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic
population carrying Group III lineages with the
M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from
sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant
(Fig. 3g). The Levantine population of farmers
that dispersed into Europe during and after the
Neolithic carried these African Group III M35}
M215 lineages, together with a cluster of Group
VI lineages characterized by M172 and M201
mutations (Fig. 3h)."- Underhill et al 2001 E1b1b aka E-M35: "The paragroup E-M35* has been observed at high frequencies in both eastern (10.5%) and southern (15.2%) Africa, with rare occurrences in northern Africa and Europe (0.4% and 0.5%, respectively)."- Cruciani et al 2004 |
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Jan 12, 2017 8:43:12 GMT -5
E1b1a and E1b1b are PN2 clade lineages.
E1b1a is also known as E-M2
and
E1b1b is also know as E-M215 or as E-M35.
These are the mutations, "M", or mutation 2 = M2.
You should learn them by the mutations because the letters change, the mutations don't. E1b1a used to be E3a, but always was E-M2. E1b1b used to be E3b, but always is E-M215 or E-M35.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 12, 2017 12:23:58 GMT -5
I repeat. Where is the proof that E-M2 is more diverse in WEST Africa compared top EASTt Africa. IIRC the ONLY popualtion they are comparing the E-M2 is WITHIN Western Africa and NOT East Africa. That is why it is imprtant to read and understand these papers. I don’t want to beat you over the head since you are doing a good job but…..undersatnd the context when you quote. The Rosa et paper is looking at E-M2 within a few popualtions wihtin Western Africa not between West Africa and East Africa
I always follow the 4Ws when I read these research papers.
W=where=where did they pull their samples? Did they pull samples from geographic logical populations?
W=when=when was the paper written? Is it up-to-date? Is the subject/premise covered bya more recent paper?
W=who etc
W=what etc
So I repeat E-M2 is of East African origin NOT West African origin as RECENT papers has shown. Rosa et al do NOT support that premise.
But I agree with you and what youa re saying about E3b*/E1b1b. It is of SSA origin.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 12, 2017 12:41:32 GMT -5
This is another important point from the paper. Reminds me of Busby et al when he said there is no latitudinal cline for R1b-M269 BUT DATA NOT SHOWN!
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Quote from Rosa et al:
“The data are consistent with the less diverse E3a-M2 profile in Central and South Africans (data not shown).”
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E-M2 is not of West African origin. There was never a Bantu migration from West Africa to east Africa and may be not even to southern Africa.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Jan 13, 2017 8:06:45 GMT -5
Where is the proof that E-M2 is more diverse in WEST Africa compared top EASTt Africa. Oh, I was talking about than Central and South Africa. The paper didn't measure it in East Africa probably because it's rarer there. I already mentioned the East African origin thing: E1b1a has its highest frequency in West Africa and is diverse in West Africa and so is thought to originate there but more recent evidence points to it originating in East Africa -- they found some E1b1a aka E-M2 in Ethiopia / East Africa. |
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