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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 15, 2010 8:58:08 GMT -5
^While I find it unlikely that the document is fabricated, you do have a good point. I was a little frustrated after I found that they took down the letter, but judging by the comments plenty of people read it to verify its contents and commented on it. I just wish that I were one of those people. Perhaps Cairo University has it published somewhere? |
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Post by egyptianplanet on May 16, 2010 17:17:05 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if he was light skinned or if other Egyptians were light skinned, they were still African. You guys need to understand skin color doesn't mean invaders or outsiders. It could be a mutation within the local populace.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 17, 2010 10:52:57 GMT -5
Who is "you guys?" It doesn't matter if he was light skinned or if other Egyptians were light skinned, they were still African. You guys need to understand skin color doesn't mean invaders or outsiders. It could be a mutation within the local populace. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 17, 2010 11:15:32 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if he was light skinned or if other Egyptians were light skinned, they were still African. You guys need to understand skin color doesn't mean invaders or outsiders. It could be a mutation within the local populace. Okay, I'm going to put this out there and its going to be long because it needs to be said. There are a lot of Egyptian people like yourself who are feeling the backlash of negativity because of your skin color. Its unfair and wrong, regardless of the fact that colorism does exist in Egyoptian society today. That is irrelivant because the exact same mentality is found throughout the communities of the African diaspora. It is the result of eveluating ourselves according to the world views of people outside our cultures. In our case, European colonizers, in your case, 2,000 years of non Egyptian colonizers from Southern Europe, Turkey and Arabia. In both these cases power had a white face and so we came to equate power, beauty, intelligence etc with looking like the oppressor. We need to free ourselves mentally. With regards to skin color in Egypt. Personally I think that some of what people think is mixture is simple regional adaptation. I think that there were people who retained Southern tropical characteristics, but there were probably lighter people because Egypt itself is not really tropical, its sub tropical. Just like the San in South Africa, which is in a similar climate zone are a reddish to yellowish brown, I think there was regional evolution along those lines. Not to say that there wasn't mixture that occured, it did, but that's not neccessarily the only explanation for light skin. With regatds to Ramses however, I think it would be impossible for him to not have had some mixture in his background because he's from the Delta which was documented to have received much migration from Lybians and the Eastern Mediterranean. But honestly, I don't know why people look at mixture as if to say that means people who are, are somehow less African. I don't know of any African culture where color came first before culture. If you are born into the society, you are part of the society plain and simple, no matter if you had a mother or father from outside the group. You also found this in Native American societies where Europeans and Africans were adopted into the society and treated and considered full blooded members because they lived the culture just like everyone else did. These notions of race determining who is and who isn't part of a group is a Eurocentric concept created by them because their social structer in the Americans and Western Europe were based on keeping the servant classes, (Africans and Native Americans), separate from the ruling class, hence the need and obcession with notions of racial purity. No where in Africa that I know of was this a concern. If a person was willing to live by the valus of the society and they were seen as contributing to it, they were accepted in and made part of it. This is the African world view. You still see it for example in the African religious societies that survived in the Americas like Santeria, Voodun, Candomble. Anyone can be a part of the religion and initiated into the priesthood, not just black people. So even in Cuba or Brazil, where the white racism is still very high, you will find white practitioner and peoples of all colors. Its about whether or not that person is willing to live by the values of the religion and work towards the well being of the society. This is an example of Igbo children who are all obviously mixed but still considered part of the community as they are being initiated into it: Disregard the opening comments of the narrator.... Now regarding this olor thing. This past week an African American legend died. Leena Horn. A great singer, but an even greater human being. To look at her is to look at Nefertiti's bust. They could be twins. She is of a physical type that if she were in Egypt, they would say she was a caucasian, but she wasn't egyptian, she was American and therefore in the eyes of society, incliuding those American anthropologists and archeologists with their craniofacial measurements, she was a negro and treated as such. She appeared in films, never having acting roles, but doing musical segments which made it easy to cut her out of the films when they played in the South. She was not allowed to sleep in any of the Hotels where she sang and when she was up for a role in the movie Show Boat, rather than giving it to her, they gave the role to Ava Gardener. What is ironic about this is that the character in the movie was a black woman, a mulatto. But evne so, Leena a woman of African, European and Native mixture, (a mulatto woman), was still too black to play her own race. They put her make up all over a white woman instead. This just shows the absurdity of this race game and all these studies and all this DNA bullshit and all these craniofacial measurement. No matter how mixed she was, American white society knew to put her in the BLACK, NEGRO, AFRICAN box and not the WHITE, CAUCASIAN, EUROPEAN box, regardless of how much European blood, DNA, straight hair, light skin, caucasian feature she had. Understand that this is all bullshit, its a game. It is a mind game created by the leaders of that system and therefore it is a game we will never win because it is created by them for them and the rules of the game will always change to make sure they win. It has nothing to do with history or science. It has everything to do with their ideology of superiority and the need to maintain the status quo by keeping the public brain washed and indoctrinated. So why are we playing their game? Rather than trying to use their findings to prove our point, we should be telling them to take their DNA etc and cram it up ther collective asses. They need to grease they Pyramids and stretch their anuses over them and have a seat. While we in these respective communities, Afro Amerian and Egyptian are arguing back and forth, we forget one thing, they hate both of us equally. Thy hate the very air that we breath and they would rather crawl through fire before they allow any of us to live a life of social, spiritual, political and ecomonic justice and dignity. They are hell bent on exploiting us all for the sake of their own greed and that is what we need to acknowledge. We need to free ourselves from living our lives according to the mind set that they created because to do so means we will never be free. Egyptians are Egyptians, they are Africans, they alwyas were and always will be. And who really gives a good gad damn what skin color they may or may not have? That is a product of a white supremacist wold view. Our peoples have always lived according to culture and family connections above all else. Its time we stop validating white supremacist ideologies and live according to our own. PERIOD! |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 17, 2010 11:25:56 GMT -5
Who is "you guys?" It doesn't matter if he was light skinned or if other Egyptians were light skinned, they were still African. You guys need to understand skin color doesn't mean invaders or outsiders. It could be a mutation within the local populace. You guys is all of us because from her perspective, I guess she's not seen enough to let her know that her point is understood and shared by all of us. This is an Egyptian woman who identifies strongly with her country, history and heritage as well as who identifies strongly with being an African woman and part of the African world. Yet she has repeatedly experienced people both black and white telling her that she is not simply because she doesn't look like what the Eurocentric mind set says an African should look like and discussions like whether or not Ramese was mixed, what he looks like etc only feed into this. I agree with her. Instead of working in a Eurocentic world view, we need to stop playing their game and tell them, so the hell what if he was a redhead or not. African cultures did not create nor live by these ideas. He was an African, period! HE was born on African soil, lived according to an African culture, practiced an African religion, spoke an African language and was the ruler of an African nation. These things carry far more weght than skin color. This is the world view of African societies all over the continent. Lets call a spade a spade and stop trying to win by playing according to the oppressors rules! |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 17, 2010 14:15:30 GMT -5
I believe EgyptianPlanet can speak for herself and so can answer the question I put to her without help from anyone else. |
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Post by egyptianplanet on May 17, 2010 22:16:15 GMT -5
First off, I'm a he.
Secondly, truthteacher said what I wanted to say.
And I've been mistaken for a Greek, Italian, half-black just to name a few. I've got East African nose and lips as big as Jay-Z's.
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Post by homeylu on May 18, 2010 0:52:53 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if he was light skinned or if other Egyptians were light skinned, they were still African. You guys need to understand skin color doesn't mean invaders or outsiders. It could be a mutation within the local populace. Okay, I'm going to put this out there and its going to be long because it needs to be said. There are a lot of Egyptian people like yourself who are feeling the backlash of negativity because of your skin color. Its unfair and wrong, regardless of the fact that colorism does exist in Egyoptian society today. That is irrelivant because the exact same mentality is found throughout the communities of the African diaspora. It is the result of eveluating ourselves according to the world views of people outside our cultures. In our case, European colonizers, in your case, 2,000 years of non Egyptian colonizers from Southern Europe, Turkey and Arabia. In both these cases power had a white face and so we came to equate power, beauty, intelligence etc with looking like the oppressor. We need to free ourselves mentally. With regards to skin color in Egypt. Personally I think that some of what people think is mixture is simple regional adaptation. I think that there were people who retained Southern tropical characteristics, but there were probably lighter people because Egypt itself is not really tropical, its sub tropical. Just like the San in South Africa, which is in a similar climate zone are a reddish to yellowish brown, I think there was regional evolution along those lines. Not to say that there wasn't mixture that occured, it did, but that's not neccessarily the only explanation for light skin. With regatds to Ramses however, I think it would be impossible for him to not have had some mixture in his background because he's from the Delta which was documented to have received much migration from Lybians and the Eastern Mediterranean. But honestly, I don't know why people look at mixture as if to say that means people who are, are somehow less African. I don't know of any African culture where color came first before culture. If you are born into the society, you are part of the society plain and simple, no matter if you had a mother or father from outside the group. You also found this in Native American societies where Europeans and Africans were adopted into the society and treated and considered full blooded members because they lived the culture just like everyone else did. These notions of race determining who is and who isn't part of a group is a Eurocentric concept created by them because their social structer in the Americans and Western Europe were based on keeping the servant classes, (Africans and Native Americans), separate from the ruling class, hence the need and obcession with notions of racial purity. No where in Africa that I know of was this a concern. If a person was willing to live by the valus of the society and they were seen as contributing to it, they were accepted in and made part of it. This is the African world view. You still see it for example in the African religious societies that survived in the Americas like Santeria, Voodun, Candomble. Anyone can be a part of the religion and initiated into the priesthood, not just black people. So even in Cuba or Brazil, where the white racism is still very high, you will find white practitioner and peoples of all colors. Its about whether or not that person is willing to live by the values of the religion and work towards the well being of the society. This is an example of Igbo children who are all obviously mixed but still considered part of the community as they are being initiated into it: Disregard the opening comments of the narrator.... Now regarding this olor thing. This past week an African American legend died. Leena Horn. A great singer, but an even greater human being. To look at her is to look at Nefertiti's bust. They could be twins. She is of a physical type that if she were in Egypt, they would say she was a caucasian, but she wasn't egyptian, she was American and therefore in the eyes of society, incliuding those American anthropologists and archeologists with their craniofacial measurements, she was a negro and treated as such. She appeared in films, never having acting roles, but doing musical segments which made it easy to cut her out of the films when they played in the South. She was not allowed to sleep in any of the Hotels where she sang and when she was up for a role in the movie Show Boat, rather than giving it to her, they gave the role to Ava Gardener. What is ironic about this is that the character in the movie was a black woman, a mulatto. But evne so, Leena a woman of African, European and Native mixture, (a mulatto woman), was still too black to play her own race. They put her make up all over a white woman instead. This just shows the absurdity of this race game and all these studies and all this DNA and all these craniofacial measurement. No matter how mixed she was, American white society knew to put her in the BLACK, NEGRO, AFRICAN box and not the WHITE, CAUCASIAN, EUROPEAN box, regardless of how much European blood, DNA, straight hair, light skin, caucasian feature she had. Understand that this is all bullshit, its a game. It is a mind game created by the leaders of that system and therefore it is a game we will never win because it is created by them for them and the rules of the game will always change to make sure they win. It has nothing to do with history or science. It has everything to do with their ideology of superiority and the need to maintain the status quo by keeping the public brain washed and indoctrinated. So why are we playing their game? Rather than trying to use their findings to prove our point, we should be telling them to take their DNA etc and cram it up ther collective asses. They need to grease they Pyramids and stretch their anuses over them and have a seat. While we in these respective communities, Afro Amerian and Egyptian are arguing back and forth, we forget one thing, they hate both of us equally. Thy hate the very air that we breath and they would rather crawl through fire before they allow any of us to live a life of social, spiritual, political and ecomonic justice and dignity. They are hell bent on exploiting us all for the sake of their own greed and that is what we need to acknowledge. We need to free ourselves from living our lives according to the mind set that they created because to do so means we will never be free. Egyptians are Egyptians, they are Africans, they alwyas were and always will be. And who really gives a good gad damn what skin color they may or may not have? That is a product of a white supremacist wold view. Our peoples have always lived according to culture and family connections above all else. Its time we stop validating white supremacist ideologies and live according to our own. PERIOD! Good points made, but most of "us guys" are fully aware of the social construction of race. This is why we use DNA to prove that it doesn't always correlate with the social definitions. I think this is the point that Al Takruri was making, although I'm sure he can speak for himself. I hope that E-planet is becoming aware of the diversified views of this forum, and realize that we don't all maintain the same view point, although some views such as the "race of Egyptians" or shall I say the origins of the Ancient Egyptians is discussed extensively. It's part of the correcting history process; the undoing of Colonial racial myths, which are still alive and thriving as witnessed from various blogs. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 18, 2010 10:45:16 GMT -5
I believe EgyptianPlanet can speak for herself and so can answer the question I put to her without help from anyone else. Don't take offense. I may be passionate in my views at times and yes I do have a chip on my shoulders, but it isn't directed against you or anyone else here rather at certain points of view that one encounnters. This is a new forum and I still don't know where everyone is coming from exactly all the time. However, I have been lurking on ES for a long time and while I admire the knowledge on he part of many of the members, there are others who only feed off of dischord and have gone out of there way to insult people like Egyptian Planet who don't deserve it. And also were friends before we joined this forum so I know exactly how he feels and why. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 18, 2010 10:54:08 GMT -5
First off, I'm a he. Secondly, truthteacher said what I wanted to say. And I've been mistaken for a Greek, Italian, half-black just to name a few. I've got East African nose and lips as big as Jay-Z's. My bad! That's what I thought, but your profile says gender undisclosed, so I thought you were female and just didn't want to say so for ome reason. I though Homy was a guy till I checked her profile, (sorry  ) Basically, my whole point is that the peope of the African diaspora need to create bridges between each other and Egypt is certainly still part of the family. It has always been the design of the colonizers to create divisions between us so that we could not network with each other and thereby be more vulnerable to manipulation and exploitation. I think it is very foolish the way some people in the Afro american community go out of their way to automatically alienate any Egyptian. And I also think it just as foolish to see Egyptians trying to climb on the anti African Eurocentric band wagon when Egypt is straining under the weight of post colonialism exploitation, not to mention the current exploitation of the IMF and multinational corporations. We're all on the same ship and if it goes down, we're all going to drown. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 18, 2010 11:00:29 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to put this out there and its going to be long because it needs to be said. There are a lot of Egyptian people like yourself who are feeling the backlash of negativity because of your skin color. Its unfair and wrong, regardless of the fact that colorism does exist in Egyoptian society today. That is irrelivant because the exact same mentality is found throughout the communities of the African diaspora. It is the result of eveluating ourselves according to the world views of people outside our cultures. In our case, European colonizers, in your case, 2,000 years of non Egyptian colonizers from Southern Europe, Turkey and Arabia. In both these cases power had a white face and so we came to equate power, beauty, intelligence etc with looking like the oppressor. We need to free ourselves mentally. With regards to skin color in Egypt. Personally I think that some of what people think is mixture is simple regional adaptation. I think that there were people who retained Southern tropical characteristics, but there were probably lighter people because Egypt itself is not really tropical, its sub tropical. Just like the San in South Africa, which is in a similar climate zone are a reddish to yellowish brown, I think there was regional evolution along those lines. Not to say that there wasn't mixture that occured, it did, but that's not neccessarily the only explanation for light skin. With regatds to Ramses however, I think it would be impossible for him to not have had some mixture in his background because he's from the Delta which was documented to have received much migration from Lybians and the Eastern Mediterranean. But honestly, I don't know why people look at mixture as if to say that means people who are, are somehow less African. I don't know of any African culture where color came first before culture. If you are born into the society, you are part of the society plain and simple, no matter if you had a mother or father from outside the group. You also found this in Native American societies where Europeans and Africans were adopted into the society and treated and considered full blooded members because they lived the culture just like everyone else did. These notions of race determining who is and who isn't part of a group is a Eurocentric concept created by them because their social structer in the Americans and Western Europe were based on keeping the servant classes, (Africans and Native Americans), separate from the ruling class, hence the need and obcession with notions of racial purity. No where in Africa that I know of was this a concern. If a person was willing to live by the valus of the society and they were seen as contributing to it, they were accepted in and made part of it. This is the African world view. You still see it for example in the African religious societies that survived in the Americas like Santeria, Voodun, Candomble. Anyone can be a part of the religion and initiated into the priesthood, not just black people. So even in Cuba or Brazil, where the white racism is still very high, you will find white practitioner and peoples of all colors. Its about whether or not that person is willing to live by the values of the religion and work towards the well being of the society. This is an example of Igbo children who are all obviously mixed but still considered part of the community as they are being initiated into it: Disregard the opening comments of the narrator.... Now regarding this olor thing. This past week an African American legend died. Leena Horn. A great singer, but an even greater human being. To look at her is to look at Nefertiti's bust. They could be twins. She is of a physical type that if she were in Egypt, they would say she was a caucasian, but she wasn't egyptian, she was American and therefore in the eyes of society, incliuding those American anthropologists and archeologists with their craniofacial measurements, she was a negro and treated as such. She appeared in films, never having acting roles, but doing musical segments which made it easy to cut her out of the films when they played in the South. She was not allowed to sleep in any of the Hotels where she sang and when she was up for a role in the movie Show Boat, rather than giving it to her, they gave the role to Ava Gardener. What is ironic about this is that the character in the movie was a black woman, a mulatto. But evne so, Leena a woman of African, European and Native mixture, (a mulatto woman), was still too black to play her own race. They put her make up all over a white woman instead. This just shows the absurdity of this race game and all these studies and all this DNA and all these craniofacial measurement. No matter how mixed she was, American white society knew to put her in the BLACK, NEGRO, AFRICAN box and not the WHITE, CAUCASIAN, EUROPEAN box, regardless of how much European blood, DNA, straight hair, light skin, caucasian feature she had. Understand that this is all bullshit, its a game. It is a mind game created by the leaders of that system and therefore it is a game we will never win because it is created by them for them and the rules of the game will always change to make sure they win. It has nothing to do with history or science. It has everything to do with their ideology of superiority and the need to maintain the status quo by keeping the public brain washed and indoctrinated. So why are we playing their game? Rather than trying to use their findings to prove our point, we should be telling them to take their DNA etc and cram it up ther collective asses. They need to grease they Pyramids and stretch their anuses over them and have a seat. While we in these respective communities, Afro Amerian and Egyptian are arguing back and forth, we forget one thing, they hate both of us equally. Thy hate the very air that we breath and they would rather crawl through fire before they allow any of us to live a life of social, spiritual, political and ecomonic justice and dignity. They are hell bent on exploiting us all for the sake of their own greed and that is what we need to acknowledge. We need to free ourselves from living our lives according to the mind set that they created because to do so means we will never be free. Egyptians are Egyptians, they are Africans, they alwyas were and always will be. And who really gives a good gad damn what skin color they may or may not have? That is a product of a white supremacist wold view. Our peoples have always lived according to culture and family connections above all else. Its time we stop validating white supremacist ideologies and live according to our own. PERIOD! Good points made, but most of "us guys" are fully aware of the social construction of race. This is why we use DNA to prove that it doesn't always correlate with the social definitions. I think this is the point that Al Takruri was making, although I'm sure he can speak for himself. I hope that E-planet is becoming aware of the diversified views of this forum, and realize that we don't all maintain the same view point, although some views such as the "race of Egyptians" or shall I say the origins of the Ancient Egyptians is discussed extensively. It's part of the correcting history process; the undoing of Colonial racial myths, which are still alive and thriving as witnessed from various blogs. I totally get you and if it wasn't for the fact that I believe you to be a person of integrity, I wouldn't have joined in the first place. Once again, my statements were not directed to anyone in particular, but in general. However, I think there are some of us who have had very bad experiences on the other forum and are not sure if this site is different in nature or not. I never participated on the other site, but I see what is said there. I do however, get my share of hate mail on youtube simply because I tell the truth and particularly for pointing out that Modern Egyptians are part of the African family and are the descendants of their forefathers. |
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Post by egyptianplanet on May 18, 2010 11:29:34 GMT -5
I was a bit weary due to my experience on EgyptSearch. I told them that I was not of black skin.. so they took to asking me questions. "Are you from the Delta?" "What do your parents look like?" And their conclusions were that I was not an Egyptian rather a Turk/Greek/Roman/Arab. I've never seen such time and effort spent on trying to prove someone is not from an ethnic group like that before. People like djeheuti, for example, that made me very cautious when I first joined here. The shocking thing is when people agree with him after his track record.
"You guys" referred to any Eurocentrists like truthcentric to Afrocentrics like djeheuti. Whenever I find any of them, it's going to get a little heated.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 18, 2010 16:48:28 GMT -5
Sorry for mistaking your gender. I couldn't care less what you or any other member looks like. First off, I'm a he. Secondly, truthteacher said what I wanted to say. And I've been mistaken for a Greek, Italian, half-black just to name a few. I've got East African nose and lips as big as Jay-Z's. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 18, 2010 16:50:35 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying what you meant by "you guys." I was a bit weary due to my experience on EgyptSearch. I told them that I was not of black skin.. so they took to asking me questions. "Are you from the Delta?" "What do your parents look like?" And their conclusions were that I was not an Egyptian rather a Turk/Greek/Roman/Arab. I've never seen such time and effort spent on trying to prove someone is not from an ethnic group like that before. People like djeheuti, for example, that made me very cautious when I first joined here. The shocking thing is when people agree with him after his track record. "You guys" referred to any Eurocentrists like truthcentric to Afrocentrics like djeheuti. Whenever I find any of them, it's going to get a little heated. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 18, 2010 16:57:59 GMT -5
Well yes I take offence at being lumped into a group. I'm a person with individual identity and character. So when you say things like " You guys is all of us" be aware of who it is you making into an assumption. Everybody on this forum is coming from a place of their own. To find where each of these separate places are located you'll have to dialog with each individual personally. I don't know about anyone else but the only one can speak for me is me. I believe EgyptianPlanet can speak for herself and so can answer the question I put to her without help from anyone else. Don't take offense. I may be passionate in my views at times and yes I do have a chip on my shoulders, but it isn't directed against you or anyone else here rather at certain points of view that one encounnters. This is a new forum and I still don't know where everyone is coming from exactly all the time. However, I have been lurking on ES for a long time and while I admire the knowledge on he part of many of the members, there are others who only feed off of dischord and have gone out of there way to insult people like Egyptian Planet who don't deserve it. And also were friends before we joined this forum so I know exactly how he feels and why. |
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