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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 18, 2010 21:05:04 GMT -5
Sorry for mistaking your gender. I couldn't care less what you or any other member looks like. First off, I'm a he. Secondly, truthteacher said what I wanted to say. And I've been mistaken for a Greek, Italian, half-black just to name a few. I've got East African nose and lips as big as Jay-Z's. And I went through such trouble to get my hair right just for you! .... That's humor. Just to balance things out.....
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Post by homeylu on May 19, 2010 0:17:34 GMT -5
I was a bit weary due to my experience on EgyptSearch. I told them that I was not of black skin.. so they took to asking me questions. "Are you from the Delta?" "What do your parents look like?" And their conclusions were that I was not an Egyptian rather a Turk/Greek/Roman/Arab. I've never seen such time and effort spent on trying to prove someone is not from an ethnic group like that before. People like djeheuti, for example, that made me very cautious when I first joined here. The shocking thing is when people agree with him after his track record. "You guys" referred to any Eurocentrists like truthcentric to Afrocentrics like djeheuti. Whenever I find any of them, it's going to get a little heated. Whew, who knew you were going to drop names like that. But I get your point. Eyeball anthropology has no place in the scholastic community, so it's best to ignore poster's who resort to such methods. The same products of the colonists I mentioned earlier. Africa has the most diverse phenotype as well as genotype, any intelligent poster should be well aware of this. Unfortunately on ES, a considerable amount of time is spent debating with "trolls" that some comments directed toward them affect other Egyptians as well. I have found in my experience that many Egyptians are just as interested in the truth about their ancestry as AA, and fully embrace their African roots, while others reject them due to manipulation of scientific data and as stated earlier "eye-ball" anthropology. This is why it's best to ask people to define "negroid" or "caucasoid" before engaging in a discussion with them, you'll find both definitions are based on gross stereotypes. But find with us, if debates get heated, as long as members remain tactful towards one another.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 19, 2010 8:53:46 GMT -5
I was a bit weary due to my experience on EgyptSearch. I told them that I was not of black skin.. so they took to asking me questions. "Are you from the Delta?" "What do your parents look like?" And their conclusions were that I was not an Egyptian rather a Turk/Greek/Roman/Arab. I've never seen such time and effort spent on trying to prove someone is not from an ethnic group like that before. People like djeheuti, for example, that made me very cautious when I first joined here. The shocking thing is when people agree with him after his track record. "You guys" referred to any Eurocentrists like truthcentric to Afrocentrics like djeheuti. Whenever I find any of them, it's going to get a little heated. Whew, who knew you were going to drop names like that. But I get your point. Eyeball anthropology has no place in the scholastic community, so it's best to ignore poster's who resort to such methods. The same products of the colonists I mentioned earlier. Africa has the most diverse phenotype as well as genotype, any intelligent poster should be well aware of this. Unfortunately on ES, a considerable amount of time is spent debating with "trolls" that some comments directed toward them affect other Egyptians as well. I have found in my experience that many Egyptians are just as interested in the truth about their ancestry as AA, and fully embrace their African roots, while others reject them due to manipulation of scientific data and as stated earlier "eye-ball" anthropology. This is why it's best to ask people to define "negroid" or "caucasoid" before engaging in a discussion with them, you'll find both definitions are based on gross stereotypes. But find with us, if debates get heated, as long as members remain tactful towards one another. I'm so glad you said this. The first thing I do is ask that question, but I have found that people are all either incapable or unwilling to answer it. I keep putting that question to Mathilda, she will never go near it, but more on her later. I just with that the scholars in the community would first examine and dismantle this concept of race and terms like negro before they tackle the subject. It just astounds me that so few of them seem will or capable of doing this. I just want to say something to Egyptian planet and everyone else. There are some very emotionally disturbed people in this world. That's just a fact and there's nothing you can do about that. They are angry, sad, a lot of them have deep self esteem issues.... which makes them angry and sad. These people will find something in life to be an outlet for that anger and negativity. They may take it out on people at the job, some take it out on their children, their family members, some will do it through religion, some do it through the internet on forums like youtube and ES. I just had an epiphany last night concerning Mathilda aka scruffypair. The whole motivation of her videos and blog is to piss off Afrocentrics and antagonize them. It has nothing to do with a genuine desire to educate, learn, create understanding, nor does it have anything to do with history or science. She will say anything to piss off the Afro crowd and use so called science to back her up, even if she has to contradict herself in the process. She doesn't care. I'm willing to bet that she's one of these people who had bad experiences with black people and so now she's getting her revenge. Amazing when you consider how much time and effort it takes to do that. Its a personal thing with her. Real scholarship has no room for stuff like that. With regards to ourselves, Afro Americans and Egyptians alike, we are all working to throw off the mental chains of colonialism and find out who we really are as versus who we were told we are. And like you, I know a lot of Egyptians who embrace their african identity. Others who are living in the closet, like the black folk who are obsessed with good hair, light skin and don't wanna know nothing about Africa. Sites like this are needed, not just for the history, but also to create bridges with our brothers and sisters in the diaspora.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on May 21, 2010 15:00:03 GMT -5
¡Ay mujere, que maravillosa! Sorry for mistaking your gender. I couldn't care less what you or any other member looks like. And I went through such trouble to get my hair right just for you! .... That's humor. Just to balance things out.....
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Post by zarahan on Jul 13, 2010 23:49:44 GMT -5
While the exact letter source may be a bit unclear, it seems certain that Egyptian authorities have studied Ramses' hair as the web page from the offical govt page attests below. It even refers to a French stidy of Ramses hair" ---------------------------- www.sis.gov.eg/En/Story.aspx?sid=20100Ramesses II’s hair returned "Remnants of hair, linen bandages and resin used in the mummification of the 19th Dynasty King Ramesses II have been returned to Egypt after 30 years in France," Egyptian Minister of Culture Farouk Hosni on Tuesday 10/4/2007 announced the return of the hair and other items at a press conference held at the Egyptian Museum, central Cairo. He declared that the return of the items was a result of diplomatic efforts between Egypt and France which reflected the strong relationship between both countries. It also reflects Egypt’s strategy and devotion to the return of its heritage, which has been smuggled out of the country. Farouk Hosni also highlighted the Supreme Council of Antiquities(SCA)’s efforts to track the farok hosny selling of such objects on the internet until they are retuned to their homeland. The retuned objects include: five samples of Ramesses II’s hair along with a lock of his hair, ten samples of resin from the mummies of Ramesses II and his son Merneptah and linen bandages that were once used in the mummification of Ramesses II’s body. Dr. Zahi Hawass, the Secretary General of the SCA, explained that the story of these objects came to light last November when they were put up for sale on the internet for 200 euros by a French citizen who claimed that he inherited these relics from his father who was a member of the scientific team that examined the mummy of Ramesses II in France in 1976. Samples of Merneptah mummy also came into the possession of the Frenchman as the French scientific mission also took samples of Merneptah mummy from the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, in 1976 when they asked to take his mummy to France for scientific research but the Egyptian authority rejected their request at the time. During the analysis, the late French physicians took 41 samples from the mummy of Ramesses II and they also took samples from the mummy of Merneptah in 1976. In collaboration with the Egyptian Embassy in Paris and the concerned French authority, Egypt succeeded in recovering the hair samples belonging to Ramesses II and Merneptah, resin and linen wrappings. Early last week Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh, Director of the archaeological site at Mit Rahina, 30km south of the Giza Plateau, traveled to Paris to pick up these objects. Dr Hawass announced that a scientific and archaeological committee has been formed in order to display the recovered objects beside the mummies of Ramesses II and Merneptah in a special exhibition in the Hall of the Royal Mummies at the Egyptian Museum, Cairo. Panels describing the results of the treatment undertaken on the mummy in 1976 in France will be also put on display. Ramesses II’s mummy (1304-1237 BC) was discovered in AD 1881 in the Deir el-Bahari cache (DB 320) among a collection of royal mummies that had been relocated from their original tombs due to theft. Priests of the 20th Dynasty (1081-931BC) reburied them in this cache at Deir el-Bahari on Luxor’s west bank. These mummies are now exhibited at the Egyptian Museum, Cairo. As for King Merneptah’s mummy, it was found in a cache inside Amenhotep II’s tomb (KV 35) in the Valley of the Kings on Luxor’s west bank in AD 1898. -------------- The French "hair" study has some shaky elements, namely the presence of henna or other vegetable dyes and colorants on the hair of Ramses. This jibes with what the mystery letter notes- the presence of such colorants. The French argue that there was red hair over and above the colorants, but actually the color is reddish-brown not yellow blonde and not red like European classic "redheads". Such reddish-brown colors are quite within the range of capability of being produced by dark-haired populations due to the presence of pheomelanin. The hair is also wavy, not pure straight hair as would be found in "Nordic" and other claimed Europeans. Such textures are again, quite within the range of native variability for Africa. See the "Nordic hair debunk" page here: knol.google.com/k/ancient-egyptian-hair#And to summarize the "hair thang"...
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Post by egyptianplanet on Jul 14, 2010 0:52:57 GMT -5
zarahan, so what if Rameses had colored hair? He was from the northern part of the Nile Delta during the New Kingdom. His family has a variety of different looks, it's hard to tell exactly how he looked. Most importantly, who cares? He associated with being Egyptian and hated both Syrians and Nubians showing him constantly trampling both and defeating them in battle. That's what I choose to remember him as.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Jul 14, 2010 10:01:58 GMT -5
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 14, 2010 10:24:29 GMT -5
I think the real underlying issue here is the continued attempt by people in some circles to distance Egypt from the African world in people's minds by whatever means they can find, no matter how flimsy. Using loaded terms like "caucasian" to describe African populations for example is one way they try to subtily implant this impression in people's minds. Because the unspoken assumption then is that these people are not native to the continent but migrated in. Harping on Ramses having red hair again is in the same vein. Yes redish hair is very unusual in any part of Africa, but not unheard of. It happens from time to time, so do light colored eyes. I've seen pictures of Darfurians with green eyes and reddish hair. Not the same shade of red as found amongst people like the Irish, like you pointed out, there's more brown in it. But lets just say for argument's sake that Ramses was a true red head. Well.... So what? One or two people with this trait over the course of thousands of years does not a physical norm make. That would be like seing an albino in the Congo and trying to make the case that all Congolese were white skinned. Such things are called anomalies. ut its the fact that they would try to use an anomaly as some how being representative of the entire population that is telling. In Egypt today, you will come across individuals with true red hair, but they are regarded by the rest of the population as being exceptions rather than the rule. They are anomalies and the general consensue amongst Egyptians when asked about it is that those people got the red haired gene from Europeans who settled in the country, either Russians or French. There's a guy in my neighborhood who has that same red hair and pale skin. I think he's Coptic. Interesting thing though is that he's got an afro. So even in cases where people in Egypt do atually have red hair, it does not rule out their Africanity.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Jul 14, 2010 15:19:23 GMT -5
I think the real underlying issue here is the continued attempt by people in some circles to distance Egypt from the African world in people's minds by whatever means they can find, no matter how flimsy. Using loaded terms like "caucasian" to describe African populations for example is one way they try to subtily implant this impression in people's minds. Because the unspoken assumption then is that these people are not native to the continent but migrated in. Harping on Ramses having red hair again is in the same vein. Yes redish hair is very unusual in any part of Africa, but not unheard of. It happens from time to time, so do light colored eyes. I've seen pictures of Darfurians with green eyes and reddish hair. Not the same shade of red as found amongst people like the Irish, like you pointed out, there's more brown in it. But lets just say for argument's sake that Ramses was a true red head. Well.... So what? One or two people with this trait over the course of thousands of years does not a physical norm make. That would be like seing an albino in the Congo and trying to make the case that all Congolese were white skinned. Such things are called anomalies. ut its the fact that they would try to use an anomaly as some how being representative of the entire population that is telling. In Egypt today, you will come across individuals with true red hair, but they are regarded by the rest of the population as being exceptions rather than the rule. They are anomalies and the general consensue amongst Egyptians when asked about it is that those people got the red haired gene from Europeans who settled in the country, either Russians or French. There's a guy in my neighborhood who has that same red hair and pale skin. I think he's Coptic. Interesting thing though is that he's got an afro. So even in cases where people in Egypt do atually have red hair, it does not rule out their Africanity. 100% co-sign. It's all about the motivation behind the conclusions. Africa's diverse, so I wouldn't be surprised, but... in this case, that dosen't seem to be the case.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 14, 2010 16:22:19 GMT -5
The premise of this thread fits into Egyptology. Rants against neo-Nazis and Nordic theories however is far from the mark and worse than useless as far as learning about ancient Egypt and immediate related topics because it only keeps refuted non- sense alive and fresh in mind instead of letting it rot in its grave. Here, let's refresh perspective from the opening post On Egyptsearch there was a study entitled ' a letter from Cairo' that debunked the claim that Ramses was a redhaired white person. I would like to take it as legit but it lacks any sources. Does anyone know the source of the study if so it would be much appreciated.
So, if one's not interested in the color of Ramses' hair one need not participate in this thread. Judging from the 3 page length of this thread quite a few are interested in his looks. Nor is there any primary documentation that he hated Syrians or so-called Nubians. The motif of subjected rival states hardly merits being equated to hatred. Even native Egyptians have appeared among the tied and kneeling 9 Bows motif of the enemies of the state. At least all of my above comments is how I see things. zarahan, so what if Rameses had colored hair? He was from the northern part of the Nile Delta during the New Kingdom. His family has a variety of different looks, it's hard to tell exactly how he looked. Most importantly, who cares? He associated with being Egyptian and hated both Syrians and Nubians showing him constantly trampling both and defeating them in battle. That's what I choose to remember him as.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 14, 2010 16:55:02 GMT -5
Red haired AEs in the sense of Europe's strawberry blondes? We would think their art would depict them if at all part of the common population. Nor do we find any rendering of Ramses as any kind of redhead. When redheads do show up in the art they seem always to be Sudanis. One argument against Ramses being a redhead is a supposed AE lynch mob mentality against redheads. I had often wondered why Greek authors invented the tale of Egyptians murdering strawberry blonds on sight. I felt that reports of anti-redhead lynchings are fantasy without factual basis. When, where, and by whom did this myth arise? Well, it's incorrect to lay it at the feet of the Greeks. It appears in many books that assume it was a Greek observation. The fact appears that Montesquieu (Spirit of Laws XV.5, 1748) fabricates "they put to death all the red-haired men who fell into their hands" without citing any reference, and this has been repeated and amplified ever since. But what do we actually have from the Greco-Latin authors? Nothing backing that ALL redheads were lynched on sight nor that ALL redheads in Egypt were put to death. "Now Osiris and Isis changed from good minor deities into gods. But the power of Typhon, weakened and crushed, but still fighting and struggling against extinction, they try to console and mollify by certain sacrifices; but again there are times when, at certain festivals, they humiliate and insult him by assailing red-headed men with jeering, and by throwing an ass over the edge of a precipice, as the people of Kopto do, because Typhon had red hair and in color resembled an ass"
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The fact is that in the city of Elethya they used to burn men alive, as Manetho has recorded; they called them Typhonians, and by means of winnowing fans they dissipated and scattered their ashes. But this was performed publicly and at a special time in the dog-days.
Plutarch De Iside et Osiride, § 30 & 73 Men also, if they were the same colour as Typhon, were sacrificed, they say, in ancient times by the kings at the tomb of Osiris; however only a few Egyptians are now found red in colour, but the majority of such are non-Egyptians.
Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheke 1.88.5 These are as about as primary a source as can be found on the practice of dispatching reds in Egypt. Instead of any notion of redheads' immediate lynching in the streets, patient persistent research reveals the possibility of regulated occasional sacrifice of the particularly ruddy and strawberry blond elements among the Reds (and these may have probably been condemned criminals). No racist inspired lawlessness as in the USA not so very long ago.
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