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Post by sttigray on Apr 8, 2010 20:22:44 GMT -5
 Above is the map by Abraham Cresques the Jew dated 1375. Below is a map based on it by Mecia de Viladestes dated 1413.  Earlier I made the mistake of saying the 2nd map was a copy of Cresques 1375 gifted to a French king. Fact is, the map gifted to young Charles VI was lost. Charles V had a copy of Cresques 1375 and had the de Viladestes 1413 map too, because it was more up to date. These maps show that Saharans were of both light and black skinned complexions, not either of one or the other colour as per the view of Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics. No one doubts that Moors were both black and white especially in latter times, my body of evidence points to the Moors being a pre-dominately African people. I am also interested in how the Asian Moors come in to the scheme of things initially |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 9, 2010 15:34:55 GMT -5
Moors are an African people, period, whether light or black.
One thing, when speaking of Moors, is to specify the time
period.
Greco-Roman era Moors were littoral North Africans from
Tunisia westward.
Early Islamic era Moors were northern Algerians and
northern Moroccans.
Mid Islamic era Moors expanded to include western Saharans.
For Xian Europe in the early and mid Islamic eras Moors
were any Muslims included in the invasion, conquest,
and occupation of al~Andalus (Moorish Spain) including
Iberian converts to Islam.
For Xian Europe often enough any African regardless
of religious confession was a Moor particularly a black.
As we enter the modern era Moor is restricted to the
Mauritanians but sometimes includes Western Saharans
and Moroccans.
I intentionally left out the Moros of the Filipines as well
as Indonesian and Indian Muslims who at times have
been referred to as Moors by Xian Europe.
External identification of Moors is one thing
while self-defined Moors is another matter.
For me only self-defined Moors are real Moors.
Externally defined Moors could be anybody
the identifier chooses to call Moor whether
or not the subjects has never viewed themselves
as Moorish.
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Post by sttigray on Apr 9, 2010 17:31:48 GMT -5
I agree, and thanks for the enlightenment as well, it is an interesting subject in which I have only begun to delve into. You have given me some interesting avenues of study, if you have more please feel free to share.
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Post by anansi on Apr 13, 2010 1:18:16 GMT -5
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Post by anansi on Apr 13, 2010 2:20:40 GMT -5
%20comes%20from.jpg) Mulai Ishmael who sacked the Songhai with his use of Euro-Iberian Moors and guns, signal in the tragic era of the decline in that part of West-Africa. Moorish Pirate captain A Moor of a liter-hue lets not get it twisted they did exist
Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth. |
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Post by sttigray on Apr 13, 2010 15:27:04 GMT -5
Thank you that was most informative, where can I find more information about Moors I would like to do a study for my students.
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Post by anansi on Apr 13, 2010 21:26:27 GMT -5
Thank you that was most informative, where can I find more information about Moors I would like to do a study for my students. Well there is the Golden age of the Moor..Ivan van Sertima Nature Knows No Color-line ...J.A Rogers(caution a little dated but crammed with reference and foot note) as a matter o fact he deals with the Moors from as far back as the Roman era right down through modern times. Shakespeare..if you want them to get animated..then use Othello,Titus Andronicus, Voltaire's... Candide Or have a video lecture by Jose Pimienta-Bey. |
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 17, 2010 22:28:49 GMT -5
The last picture you posted "the so called lighter skinnned man" is of Sultan Ahmad al-Mansur, who's mother was a Fulani concubine. |
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Post by anansi on Apr 18, 2010 7:27:08 GMT -5
A Moor of a liter-hue lets not get it twisted they did exist
Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth.[/quote] The last picture you posted "the so called lighter skinnned man" is of Sultan Ahmad al-Mansur, who's mother was a Fulani concubine.[/quote] Ooh really so he became Sultan after he became ambassador to Queen Elizabeth..so what then of his father what ethnic back-ground..where did he come from?
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Post by djehuti on Apr 24, 2010 5:54:49 GMT -5
LOL Who does this 'Truth' think he's fooling?! He posted the exact same nonsense in the original Egyptsearch where he was DEBUNKED. Now he posts it again!
The says the Moors of Iberia consisted of Arabs and Berbers, yet what he fails to understand was that it was predominantly Berbers and that these Berbers WERE black! As if Berber is exclusive to blacks! LOL
He also ignores StTigray's cited account calling the Moors "pitch" like a "frying pan". How the hell can you say Moor means 'dark' and is relative, when all accounts were specific that they said PITCH or BLACK.
He also posts the same Medieval portraits, but leaves those out depicting the true black Moors, and even posts that fake one from wikipedia that was made by the author! LOL
Just when you thought you can escape the trolls! ;D
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 26, 2010 13:50:10 GMT -5
A Moor of a liter-hue lets not get it twisted they did exist
Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth. The last picture you posted "the so called lighter skinnned man" is of Sultan Ahmad al-Mansur, who's mother was a Fulani concubine.[/quote] Ooh really so he became Sultan after he became ambassador to Queen Elizabeth..so what then of his father what ethnic back-ground..where did he come from?[/quote] His father was Mohammed ash-Sheikh, he was of Northern Saharan descent. Basically he was a northern Berber speaker. His father was also a Sultun. "Mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh ash Sharif al-Hassani al-Drawi at-Tagmadert (died 1557) was the first sultan of the Saadi dynasty ruling over Morocco (1544-1557). Al-Drawi at-Tagmadert means: the man from the Draa river valley, from Tagmadert. " Place of Origin:Central/Southern Morocco His mother was most likely from Mauritania or even Southern Morocco, and it's also very possiable that she was more then just a concubine but a noble lady from a more southern empire or kingdom, unidentified in regard to records. Her statues as a noble southern lady would not have crippled her childrens chances of becoming Sultan. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 26, 2010 14:09:53 GMT -5
Doesn't the caption, in the portrait itself, say the man's name is abdul Guahid? The
University of Birmingham gives the full name as Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud ben Mohammed Anoun.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 6, 2010 16:18:59 GMT -5
Real descendant of the Moors  Algerian dancer from the tribe of the Oulid Nail from Busada in Algeria. So much cherry picking. Lets just remember that the term Moor was used to describe the Muslim peoples in general, particularly those of North Africa. A careful review of the history shows that the people who ruled Spain came from all over the Islamic world. Some came from Syria, some from Arabia, some from Central Asia and yes, many of them from the areas of Africa in the Sahara and the Niger river area. I do think that originally, during the Roman period, the term was applied to the peoples of North Africa, who were on the whole darker than they were. I think in time the term came to be usd more broadly. However, I think to a degree it boils down to people's expectation as to what they think a person of that group should look like. For example, many people don't believe that I'm Jamaican because I'm not as dark as they think I should be. The fact is that we don't come in any particular color, we come in all colors. Same holds true for the Moors. What I find surprising in all these types of discussions is an underliying assumption that these people are all extinct. If you want to know what a "Moor" looks like, go to North Africa and the Sahara and have a look around. What you're going to find is a range of colors and physical types. Just like Egypt, these are a people who identify primarily by national origin, family ties and shared culture, not skin color and so within the community the skin tones range. They all identify as one people regardless. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on May 6, 2010 16:43:34 GMT -5
Moors are an African people, period, whether light or black. One thing, when speaking of Moors, is to specify the time period. Greco-Roman era Moors were littoral North Africans from Tunisia westward. Early Islamic era Moors were northern Algerians and northern Moroccans. Mid Islamic era Moors expanded to include western Saharans. For Xian Europe in the early and mid Islamic eras Moors were any Muslims included in the invasion, conquest, and occupation of al~Andalus (Moorish Spain) including Iberian converts to Islam. For Xian Europe often enough any African regardless of religious confession was a Moor particularly a black. As we enter the modern era Moor is restricted to the Mauritanians but sometimes includes Western Saharans and Moroccans. I intentionally left out the Moros of the Filipines as well as Indonesian and Indian Muslims who at times have been referred to as Moors by Xian Europe. External identification of Moors is one thing while self-defined Moors is another matter. For me only self-defined Moors are real Moors. Externally defined Moors could be anybody the identifier chooses to call Moor whether or not the subjects has never viewed themselves as Moorish. Exactly. The problem with Afrocentricity and Eurocentricity is that.... well.... they're both Eurocentric! The Eurocentric world view assumes that the world is made up of distictly different populations who are unrelated to each other, nor can they ever be. A truely Afrocentric world view would recognize that in the real world biological and culturalties cut across color lines. Two people can be of different colors and disply different physical characteristics yet still be biologiaclly related. This is the reality of that part of the African world and the communities of the African diaspora in general. We did not create these notions of race, European slave owning societies and colonialists did and therefore, they always seek to portray the world from their perspective. So called Afrocentrism is based in the same Eurocentric premise that the World's populations are divided into rigidly distinct groups. This is the reality of that part of Africa. Notice the range of skin tones, hair textures, facial structures. Now the Eurocentric mind will claim this variety due to "caucasian admixture". The reality is these people don't perceive of themselves that way. No bidy gives a F about deep history,DNA and haplotypes in the real world. They identify and feel attachment to those in their family groups, communities and countries. As far as they are concerned, people come in different colors and shades and so what?! |
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locdiva
Craftsperson
#1 locdiva
Posts: 65
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Post by locdiva on May 13, 2010 17:39:35 GMT -5
Truth, just to let you know, Wikipedia IS NOT a viable, trusted source. Since users make the entries, all of its info can be questioned!!
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