Were the ancient Hebrews black?

[gigantic]

What in the world is "reddish brown?" but another trojan horse to tie Subsaharaners into the middle-eastern or mediterraenean vine. Tawny or Tan complected are the more precise terms. You and I know that if one uses the more precise terms then Subsaharaners are excluded. It is advantageous for you to use "Reddish Brown" because of the following: Link.

Aug 3, 2010 8:12:19 GMT -5 jari said:

First off before we get into debate, I don't believe all Hebrews were a certain look. As a matter of fact I believe the Patriach Abraham was Reddish brown as everyone prior who descended from Adam(Red Earth). Take not of that.

Next Ruddy:

rud'-i ('adhmoni (1 Samuel 16:12; 17:42; Genesis 25:25 the Revised Version margin), 'adhom (Song of Solomon 5:10); verbs 'adham (Lamentations 4:7), and eruthriao, "to blush" (Ad Es 15:5)):

[gigantic]

I am kewl w/that since those are some of my alliases. But it seems Al Takruri takes issue with it (God knows why) and wants to strong arm people into following HIS draconian rules.

Aug 3, 2010 19:32:47 GMT -5 jari said:

Takruri, "Afronut" is what Gigantic used to call himself(Afronut slayer) not a "Name" just like XXYman calls him RAA(Recovering Afroholic).If he has a problem with it I will no longer use the name.

[gigantic]

Aug 3, 2010 19:30:21 GMT -5 jari said:

First off WHO are you testing to be the Authentic Jew bloodline?? The Ahkenazi?? Who are you are anyone to judge who is the Authentic Jew...Like Akoben says the so called Jew is a convert. Unless you can provide a sample of Abraham's DNA.

The sampling is from the middle east, n.Africa and s.Europe population, since, historically, these are the areas the jews had dispersed to. And like I said, at the minimum, the Subsaharaner would have to be a carrier of eb3 or J haplogroup genes (found in those areas) --never mind the Cohen Modal Haplotype used as the litmus to determine jewish'ness. If the Subsaharaner can at least meet the bear minimum, then the possibility exists.

[jari]

Aug 4, 2010 15:39:52 GMT -5 gigantic said:

What in the world is "reddish brown?" but another trojan horse to tie Subsaharaners into the middle-eastern or mediterraenean vine. Tawny or Tan complected are the more precise terms. You and I know that if one uses the more precise terms then Subsaharaners are excluded. It is advantageous for you to use "Reddish Brown" because of the following: Link.

Aug 3, 2010 8:12:19 GMT -5 jari said:

First off before we get into debate, I don't believe all Hebrews were a certain look. As a matter of fact I believe the Patriach Abraham was Reddish brown as everyone prior who descended from Adam(Red Earth). Take not of that.

Next Ruddy:

rud'-i ('adhmoni (1 Samuel 16:12; 17:42; Genesis 25:25 the Revised Version margin), 'adhom (Song of Solomon 5:10); verbs 'adham (Lamentations 4:7), and eruthriao, "to blush" (Ad Es 15:5)):

Gigantic you know as well as I do that Reddish brown does not include ALL African people..

Here are some "Reddish Brown folks...





There are populations that are reddish brown that are not African Americans and Urban Dictionary...come on dude.

The people in those pics were not "Tan" they were Medium Brown skin...

[jari]

Aug 4, 2010 15:45:07 GMT -5 gigantic said:

I am kewl w/that since those are some of my alliases. But it seems Al Takruri takes issue with it (God knows why) and wants to strong arm people into following HIS draconian rules.

Aug 3, 2010 19:32:47 GMT -5 jari said:

Takruri, "Afronut" is what Gigantic used to call himself(Afronut slayer) not a "Name" just like XXYman calls him RAA(Recovering Afroholic).If he has a problem with it I will no longer use the name.

I don't get it but I will call you Gigantic, I mean its not name calling it WAS YOUR FIRST name which is why I use it but whatever..

[gigantic]

Jari, the problem is the term "Reddish brown" or "Red bone'dd" are colloquial terms used in African American circles. This is why I accuse it of being a trojan horse; it hints to an African American phoenotype, hence, it makes an indirect association with African Americans. Reddish brown is used a lot in the BHI (Black Hebrew Israelite) circle. That is how they rationalize the etymology of Adam; that is, Adam and Adomee (ruddy; flush or rosy complexion) have a common primary root, thus one would logically conclude that Adam was fair skin or tawny complected. The Reddish brown explanation brings the contradiction into conformity with their doctrine.

The proper term is "Tawny" or "Tan." But of course, it does not serve the Afrocentrist interest to use those terms since both terms are not used to describe the phoenotype of Subsaharaners.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Thank you for cooperating and understanding that.
ES handles are for ES and ESR handles are for ESR.

Aug 4, 2010 21:36:35 GMT -5 jari said:

Aug 4, 2010 15:45:07 GMT -5 gigantic said:

I am kewl w/that since those are some of my alliases. But it seems Al Takruri takes issue with it (God knows why) and wants to strong arm people into following HIS draconian rules.

I don't get it but I will call you Gigantic, I mean its not name calling it WAS YOUR FIRST name which is why I use it but whatever..[/quote]

[truthteacher2007]

Reddish brown. That must mean a person with dark brown skin that has a strong red undertone. Its quite common among dark brown peoples in the Saharan countries of North Africa as well as many of the dark brown peoples throughout Sub Saharan Africa and the diaspora.

Attachments:

[truthteacher2007]

Another example. Anyone else have examples that you'd care to share.

Attachments:

[gigantic]

Along with the "reddish brown" complexion, the Hebrews had extremely stringily to wavy-curly hair; shaggy hair/healthy tress. None of the people in the photos you posted have that kind of hair. Firstly, in hebrew lexicon, the word for hair is "Se'ar." Secondly, the word for the goat is "Sa'yir," and further, the Hebrews observed that the goats of their flock were found in the mountain in the land of Edom and, as a result, called it "har_Seir" [Mount Seir]. Interestingly, Esav was given his name because of his shaggy appearance.

Both Seir and Sa'yir have a common three stem prime root [shin, ain, resh]. It is by design that the hebrews developed the two words from a singular root; the two are interrelated. They saw the fur of the goat in their hair texture, hence the interrelation between the words.

A mountain goat:



The hebrews would have looked like the following --stringily to wavy-curly hair (healthy tress) and tawny complexion [please note the red undertone in her skin. This is why they were called Adomee --the red tint showed a lot thru the skin. You don't find that in the photos of the Subsaharaners because they have too much melanin masking their blood vessels]:

[truthteacher2007]

Can anyone here go through any of my posts and show me where I have ever claimed that Subsaharan Africans are Hebrews??
In fact, I believe that I was quite emphatic to the contrary in the thread dealing with the Exedous of the Hebrews:

Re: what are your thoughts on Hebrews in ancient K
« Reply #8 on Jul 30, 2010, 8:43am »

Jul 30, 2010, 3:54am, olehint wrote:
Is the Exodus from Egypt of Hebrews a myth or is it just unknown but possible?
I know this du who is a Hebrew Israelite.
If the Exodus is a myth does that break down his whole frame work or can he still have a consistent belief in Judaism without that specific story?


Not for nothing, but the last place I'd go looking for accurate historical information would be to a Hebrew Isrealite. Our people came primarily from Central and West Africa, not ancient Palestine. Whenever you start mixing religion into the equation you're walking down a very slippery slope.

Now what can real history tell us? Personally, not being a follower of any of the Abrahamic religions, I do not believe in the Bible as historical fact. I do think the purpose of the Bilble was not to get hung up on whether or not the stories were historical events, but the lessons they had to teach.

Having said that though, I think that they are based on certain cultural and historical circumstances. Cannanites had been migrating into Egypt for a very long time. Its documented as far back as the Old Kingdom. It is documented fact that many people from Cannan did go to Egypt looking for employment and it is also documented that Amenhotep 2 imported 86,000 men from palestine and Syria who were used as farm hands and other such work including construction projects. So perhaps the people who became the Hebrews were at one time employed in Egypt under such circumstances. Did they part the sea and flee in masses, I don't believe in parting seas, but I do think that at some point some of these people were allowed to go back to their home of origin.

With regards to my last posts, the question I was addressing was what is reddish brown skin. Again reddish brown skin is dark brown skin that has a strong red undertone. It is very common amongst the darker complected peoples in Egypt and the rest of east Africa and can be seen in other peoples throughout the continent south of the Sahara as well. The two photos posted are perfect examples.

I guess i take it for granted that everyone knows that there are a variety of skin tones found throughout Africa, Africa south of the Sahara. Some are darker than others.

I don't know what "healthy tresses" is supposed to mean. The health of a person's hair has nothing to do with whether it is curly or straight. There is healthy and unhealthy hair among all hair types. But since hair was mentioned, (one of my favorite topics), the Nubian girl in the photo posted has naturally straight hair. For what its worth, hair texture is a poor indicator since all hair textures from straight to kinky can be found both in North, East and Saharan Africa, as well as in Palestine.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Our host doesn't support full Unicode fonts so my apologies for currently posting only transliterations instead of Hebrew font.

The biblical Hebrew word for hair has one spelling and two pronunciations
se`ar
sa`ar.


The main biblical Hebrew word for goat has two spellings and one pronunciation

sa`iyr	this is the plene or full spelling with the consonant yodh
sa`ir	this is the defective or short spelling without the consonant yodh.

There are other biblical Hebrew words for goat. They are

'aqqow	wild goat
`ez	she-goat
`iziym	goat's hair
ssaphiyr	he-goat
tayish	he-goat known for butting.

The biblical Hebrew words for hair and goat are from two different roots.
The biblical Hebrew word for hair is not the same word for goat's hair.
The Israelites did not liken their hair to goat's hair hence different words for each.

The goat is not an animal of favorable metaphor in biblical Hebrew.
It's speakers never applied goat references to themselves. They
reserved it for the unsavory characters like Esau (the antithesis
of an Israelite) or the king of Greece in Daniel's novella. Satyrs
were thought of as having a goat's form and that word is spelled
exactly the same as goat in Isaiah's prophecies.


Texture description of hair is rare in biblical Hebrew literature

`*amar	wool; being like `amar meaning a heap
tal*tal	bushy; from tal meaning piled up.

Unlike examples of wishful thinking and irrelevant modern photos
[insert modern image of wavy haired RedSea Jewess later]
the above biblical hair textures are in keeping with authentic art
of the biblical era depicting Judahites conquered by Sennacherib.


Fig 1 Three "chief elders" of the Judaean city Lachish
bow before Sennacherib. From James B. Pritchard's
THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST VOL I net copyright ©1997 al~Takruri


Since Israel was composed of a core group heavily supplemented
by other peoples to their south, east, and north there was no one
hair type or phenotype applicable to all biblical era "Hebrews."

[gigantic]

I will only address this quote of you. The rest of your missive is inconsequential.

Prime Root word for Sear (H8181): Sa'ar (H8175)
Prime Root word for Sa'iyr (H8163): Sa'ar (H8175)

Sa'ar means horor, dread, ...

If you have a strong's you would have seen this. So either Strong's is wrong and you are correct or Strong's is correct and you are wrong. Which is it?

Aug 6, 2010 16:50:31 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

The biblical Hebrew words for hair and goat are from two different roots.
The biblical Hebrew word for hair is not the same word for goat's hair.

[truthteacher2007]

Aug 6, 2010 16:50:31 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

Our host doesn't support full Unicode fonts so my apologies for currently posting only transliterations instead of Hebrew font.

The biblical Hebrew word for hair has one spelling and two pronunciations
se`ar
sa`ar.


The main biblical Hebrew word for goat has two spellings and one pronunciation

sa`iyr	this is the plene or full spelling with the consonant yodh
sa`ir	this is the defective or short spelling without the consonant yodh.

There are other biblical Hebrew words for goat. They are

'aqqow	wild goat
`ez	she-goat
`iziym	goat's hair
ssaphiyr	he-goat
tayish	he-goat known for butting.

The biblical Hebrew words for hair and goat are from two different roots.
The biblical Hebrew word for hair is not the same word for goat's hair.
The Israelites did not liken their hair to goat's hair hence different words for each.

The goat is not an animal of favorable metaphor in biblical Hebrew.
It's speakers never applied goat references to themselves. They
reserved it for the unsavory characters like Esau (the antithesis
of an Israelite) or the king of Greece in Daniel's novella. Satyrs
were thought of as having a goat's form and that word is spelled
exactly the same as goat in Isaiah's prophecies.


Texture description of hair is rare in biblical Hebrew literature

`*amar	wool; being like `amar meaning a heap
tal*tal	bushy; from tal meaning piled up.

Unlike examples of wishful thinking and irrelevant modern photos
[insert modern image of wavy haired RedSea Jewess later]
the above biblical hair textures are in keeping with authentic art
of the biblical era depicting Judahites conquered by Sennacherib.


Fig 1 Three "chief elders" of the Judaean city Lachish
bow before Sennacherib. From James B. Pritchard's
THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST VOL I net copyright ©1997 al~Takruri


Since Israel was composed of a core group heavily supplemented
by other peoples to their south, east, and north there was no one
hair type or phenotype applicable to all biblical era "Hebrews."

Thank you for that explanation. I totally agree with what you've had to say. I especially appreciate the end of your post. That area of the world has seen many movements of population and so there would have been a variety of physical types present in the population. Having visited that area and having a lot of contact with Palestinians, I find that this is still the case to this day.

I think it is also important to remember that thinking of one's self in terms of race was non existant back then. Black, white etc were simply adjectives of a person's actual color. The basis of their identity would have been based on nationality, geography, culture and most of all faith.

[gigantic]

Hebrew women with long tresses [sear]: