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Post by herodotus on Nov 3, 2013 10:45:36 GMT -5
Quote by Shriver ****May 2013**** "The FOUR skin color loci we identified by association analysis act in an ADDITIVE fashion: we found no evidence of dominance at any of the loci, nor " And "These results suggest that an APBA2 (OCA2) mutation conferring light skin arose BEFORE the spread of humans out of Africa," You do know why he focused on APBA2(OCA)? This is 2013. Plus the chart was put up. Yet you insist on BSing. Emotion outburst aside try to understand the chart. If we can't get past this then let us end the discussion. You are wasting my time. You MAY have an argument on blue eyes but if you can't get past light skin locus...we are done. Discuss this with someone who is into delusional beliefs. I base my argument on hard data. I don't rely on pictures nor erroneous perceptions on Africans. Using meaningless words such as "associated", "close", "Affinity" does nothing for me or to me. The issue is ORIGIN, DERIVED, UNDERIVED. etc. so PLEASE!!!! Read some more and get back to me. YAAAAAWN!!!!! try ES or another thread. You may have some takers there. Are you agreeing with him on the blue eyes assertion? I found some pics of a Nepali and Malaysian girl. To be honest I have seen peeps all over with blue eyes.   The derived HERC2 mutation resulting in blue eyes occurred around the Black Sea. A very small number of individuals in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Africa have them - explained through gene flow. These people are carrying the same mutation that arose around the Black Sea, so they share a common ancestor from that region in the last 10,000 or so years. The derived HERC2 is not an African mutation, nor would blue eyes be selected there. It seems to me that too many blacks are fixated with white skin and blue eyes, and seem to resent their dark skin and dark eyes. Everyone knows Europeans in the sense of having light eyes and skin are unique, but I think people should just accept what they have. There is no need for self-hatred. |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 3, 2013 14:02:45 GMT -5
If you say so... Quote: "White skin only appeared in Europeans. Your own sources don't even support your claims". I can't go any further. We can't get past first base. quote: "Everyone knows Europeans in the sense of having light eyes and skin are unique" It is not worth my time. I have more things to do and post on. no, anastasiaescrava...I NOT agreeing with him. I thought he had something. You haven't read the paper properly, or rather you don't understand it. The paper says nothing about white skin and your claim there were "white Africans" is sheer fantasy. Read Beleza et al. (2012). Ala111Thr (SLC24A5) played the key role in whiteness in Europeans. AlalllThr only entered Africans 3,000 years ago by gene flow. "The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya)." (Pagini et al. 2012) The APBA2 (OCA2) mutation never led to white skin, only lighter brown shades in Africans. Shriver, Beleza etc are not saying white skin arose in humans before the out of africa dispersal. White skin only appeared in Europeans. Your own sources don't even support your claims. |
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Post by herodotus on Nov 3, 2013 15:59:44 GMT -5
Of course only Europeans have white skin, who denies this?
Just take a look at results from a reflectance spectrophotometer:
Population - Observed reflectance - Predicted reflectance
Afghanistan/Iran (NH) 55·70 45·55
Algeria (Aures) (NH) 58·05 47·91
Australia (Darwin) (SH) 19·30 36·24
Belgium (NH) 63·14 65·66
Botswana (San) (SH) 42·40 39·45
Brazil (Caingan) (SH) 49·40 48·53
Brazil (Guarani) (SH) 47·20 45·29
Burkina Faso (Kurumba) (NH) 28·60 34·23
Cambodia (NH) 54·00 38·99
Cameroon (Fali) (NH) 21·50 34·37
Chad (Sara) (NH) 24·60 34·77
China (Southern) (NH) 59·17 50·49
China (Tibet) (NH) 54·70 41·78
Ethiopia (NH) 31·70 32·70
Ethiopia (Highland) (NH) 33·55 31·35
Germany (Mainz) (NH) 66·90 65·21
Greenland (Southern) (NH) 55·70 70·31
India (NH) 44·60 48·85
India (Bengal) (NH) 49·73 44·33
India (Goa) (NH) 46·40 38·93
India (Nagpur) (NH) 41·30 41·53
India (Northern) (NH) 53·26 44·23
India (Orissa) (NH) 32·05 41·52
India (Punjab) (NH) 54·24 47·89
India (Rajasthan) (NH) 52·00 42·19
India (Southern) (NH) 46·70 37·60
Iraq/Syria (Kurds) (NH) 61·12 51·50
Ireland (Ballinlough) (NH) 65·20 67·11
Ireland (Carnew) (NH) 64·50 65·84
Ireland (Longford) (NH) 65·00 66·99
Ireland (Rossmore) (NH) 64·75 66·73
Israel (NH) 58·20 48·67
Japan (Central) (NH) 55·42 58·51
Japan (Hidakka) (NH) 59·10 63·58
Japan (Northern) (NH) 54·90 61·34
Japan (Southwest) (NH) 53·55 56·68
Jordan (NH) 53·00 45·36
Kenya (NH) 32·40 34·21
Lebanon (NH) 58·20 50·74
Liberia (NH) 29·40 40·52
Libya (Cyrenaica) (NH) 53·50 44·19
Libya (Fezzan) (NH) 44·00 41·31
Libya (Tripoli) (NH) 54·40 48·83
Malawi (SH) 27·00 38·67
Mali (Dogon) (NH) 34·10 34·54
Morocco (NH) 54·85 49·09
Mozambique (Chopi) (SH) 19·45 43·84
Namibia (SH) 25·55 38·29
Namibia (Okavango) (SH) 22·92 38·63
Namibia (Rehoboth Baster) (SH) 32·90 36·49
Nepal (Eastern) (NH) 50·42 46·31
Netherlands (NH) 67·37 65·94
Nigeria (Ebo) (NH) 28·20 41·86
Nigeria (Yoruba) (NH) 27·40 39·62
Pakistan (NH) 52·30 44·15
Papua New Guinea (SH) 35·30 37·26
Papua New Guinea (Goroka) (SH) 33·30 34·20
Papua New Guinea (Karker) (SH) 32·00 37·25
Papua New Guinea (Lufa) (SH) 31·20 36·88
Papua New Guinea (Mt Hagan) (SH) 35·35 31·56
Papua New Guinea (Port Moresby) (SH) 41·00 35·45
Peru (Maranon) (SH) 43·05 42·28
Peru (Nunoa) (SH) 47·70 34·89
Philippines (Manila) (NH) 54·10 41·53
Russia (Chechen) (NH) 53·45 59·04
Saudi Arabia (NH) 52·50 38·65
South Africa (SH) 42·50 45·67
South Africa (Cape) (SH) 50·96 50·71
South Africa (Hottentot) (SH) 46·80 43·91
South Africa (San Central) (SH) 43·75 41·14
Spain (Basques) (NH) 65·70 62·38
Spain (Leon) (NH) 64·66 60·80
Sudan (NH) 35·50 33·45
Swaziland (SH) 35·60 44·62
Tanzania (Nyatura) (SH) 25·80 34·12
Tanzania (Sandewe) (SH) 28·90 32·13
Tunisia (NH) 56·30 52·03
Turkey (NH) 59·15 55·56
United Kingdom (Cumberland) (NH) 66·75 66·99
United Kingdom (London) (NH) 62·30 65·84
United Kingdom (Northern) (NH) 66·10 67·49
United Kingdom (Wales) (NH) 65·00 66·15
Vietnam (NH) 55·90 43·59
Zaire (NH) 33·20 37·46
Zaire (Konda) (SH) 29·40 39·43
Average 46·18 46·52
- Jablonski, N. G., Chaplin, G. (2000). “The evolution of human skin coloration”. Journal of Human Evolution. 39(1). pp. 57-106.
- Jablonski, N. G. (2006). Skin: A Natural History. University of California Press.
Europeans reflect the most visible light. Higher values indicate lighter skin and greater reflectance. Europeans are 62+. All non-Europeans are lower.
Care to explain?
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Post by herodotus on Nov 3, 2013 16:08:43 GMT -5
Show me an African who clusters with Europeans (62+) on the reflectance spectrophotometer...
I'll be waiting. Remember you claimed there are "white Africans".
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Nov 3, 2013 20:37:34 GMT -5
It seems to me that too many blacks are fixated with white skin and blue eyes, and seem to resent their dark skin and dark eyes. Everyone knows Europeans in the sense of having light eyes and skin are unique, but I think people should just accept what they have. There is no need for self-hatred. Wouldn't necessarily call it self hatred but definitely reactionary posturing like kids with their anything you can do I can do better taunting. But I agree with you. Africans, we just aren't known for our white skins, blond hair, and blue eyes all of which are freakish for non-albino continentals and nowhere near a norm, average, or even plurality in the real world. Outside of some new borns and young kiddies I have never met blond indigenous Africans w/o some degree of European parentage nor have I ever in my not so young life met a blue eyed indigenous African either. If they even exist they are a super-rare anomaly. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 3, 2013 20:58:19 GMT -5
Are you agreeing with him on the blue eyes assertion? I found some pics of a Nepali and Malaysian girl. To be honest I have seen peeps all over with blue eyes. The derived HERC2 mutation resulting in blue eyes occurred around the Black Sea. A very small number of individuals in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Africa have them - explained through gene flow. These people are carrying the same mutation that arose around the Black Sea, so they share a common ancestor from that region in the last 10,000 or so years. The derived HERC2 is not an African mutation, nor would blue eyes be selected there. It seems to me that too many blacks are fixated with white skin and blue eyes, and seem to resent their dark skin and dark eyes. Everyone knows Europeans in the sense of having light eyes and skin are unique, but I think people should just accept what they have. There is no need for self-hatred. Care to define what you mean by black? Not a term I use to describe myself personally. However, as a person of African descent, I can say with great certainty, that contrary to your opinion, I love those features that I inherited from my African side. I love my kinky hair, I love my full lips. And while my skin is not dark brown, my mother's is and she is undoubtedly one of the moste beautiful women anyone has ever seen. I am and always have been attracted to dark skin, even though I see the beauty in all people's and skin tones. As for blue eyed Africans.... I find it interesting, but I don't think eye color makes someone more beautiful or less beautiful. Beauty comes in many different forms. No one set of features has a hallmark on beauty. Now to my remark that white people do not own any set of features exclusively.... Well that still stands. Pale skin can be found in many people who are not European. There are many Asiatic peoples who have complexions just as ruddy as any European. There are non Europeans who have blond hair, many non Europeans who have narrow noses, thin lips and narrow faces. And lets say that blue eyes in Africa did arise from some distant back to Africa gene, the fact that it is now found in non African populations means that it is no longer their exclusive possession. So you see my dear friend, my statement is still true. That is unless those of your ilk are willing to "elevate" us to the "cherished" status of greatness as members of the so called white race. In which case, I guess most Afro Americans will have to check new boxes on the next census.  Mercy me! Just imagine! |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 3, 2013 21:07:38 GMT -5
It seems to me that too many blacks are fixated with white skin and blue eyes, and seem to resent their dark skin and dark eyes. Everyone knows Europeans in the sense of having light eyes and skin are unique, but I think people should just accept what they have. There is no need for self-hatred. Wouldn't necessarily call it self hatred but definitely reactionary posturing like kids with their anything you can do I can do better taunting. But I agree with you. Africans, we just aren't known for our white skins, blond hair, and blue eyes all of which are freakish for non-albino continentals and nowhere near a norm, average, or even plurality in the real world. Outside of some new borns and young kiddies I have never met blond indigenous Africans w/o some degree of European parentage nor have I ever in my not so young life met a blue eyed indigenous African either. If they even exist they are a super-rare anomaly. As I don't understand the charts or science behind it, I can't speak to the idea of white skinned Africans. Light brown yes. White skin... I have my theories, which I have voiced in other threads. Blond haired Africans below the Sahara I've never seen. I have seen many Nubians who have blond streaks though. As for blue eyed Africans, I have seen a few and met one personally. Whatever the cause though, I don't think that anyone was suggesting that it was anything other than a rarity. I think that goes without saying. Rare, but not unheard of. |
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Post by azrur on Nov 3, 2013 22:29:28 GMT -5
Wouldn't necessarily call it self hatred but definitely reactionary posturing like kids with their anything you can do I can do better taunting. But I agree with you. Africans, we just aren't known for our white skins, blond hair, and blue eyes all of which are freakish for non-albino continentals and nowhere near a norm, average, or even plurality in the real world. Outside of some new borns and young kiddies I have never met blond indigenous Africans w/o some degree of European parentage nor have I ever in my not so young life met a blue eyed indigenous African either. If they even exist they are a super-rare anomaly. As I don't understand the charts or science behind it, I can't speak to the idea of white skinned Africans. Light brown yes. White skin... I have my theories, which I have voiced in other threads. Blond haired Africans below the Sahara I've never seen. I have seen many Nubians who have blond streaks though. As for blue eyed Africans, I have seen a few and met one personally. Whatever the cause though, I don't think that anyone was suggesting that it was anything other than a rarity. I think that goes without saying. Rare, but not unheard of.    the people of canaries were said to be tan with blonde hair and stuff |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2013 0:16:48 GMT -5
As I don't understand the charts or science behind it, I can't speak to the idea of white skinned Africans. Light brown yes. White skin... I have my theories, which I have voiced in other threads. Blond haired Africans below the Sahara I've never seen. I have seen many Nubians who have blond streaks though. As for blue eyed Africans, I have seen a few and met one personally. Whatever the cause though, I don't think that anyone was suggesting that it was anything other than a rarity. I think that goes without saying. Rare, but not unheard of. the people of canaries were said to be tan with blonde hair and stuff Okay, let me say this. Those people, do I believe they are African? I most certainly do. Am I certain that they do not have some sort of admixture? No I'm not. Do I think it really matters? Hell no I don't. Why not? Well let me put it this way. If I were to be prejudiced against those white skinned Africans because theymay or not be mixed and deny their right to be African, I'd have to be prejudiced against my own white skinned relatives, like my father and deny their right to be people of the African family as well. What makes a person part of the African family goes far deeper than skin color. And as I have said before, and will say again, if you know what to look for, you will see many things that connect Africans together, regardless of their features, regardless of who or what they may or may not be mixed with. What it means to be an African and part of the African family is far richer and deeper than superficial things like what the eyes tell you. Beneath the skin is a deeper truer reality. The words that are spoken tell a far more complex story. The rythms of the music and the responses of the body reveal the truth of the soul that is rooted deep in the soil from which it comes and those roots are intertwined with others in ways you can't see on the surface and which can never be broken without killing the tree. Look at these children. Can anyone say that these children are not Igbo? That they are not a part of that world? What is it that makes them Igbo, is it skin color, or is it the connection to family and their soul? Can their skin color disconnect them from their family? No! So let us, as AFRICAN PEOPLE Stop measuring ourselves by a stick created by aliens who were intent on destroying us for the benifit of their gains. I accept you as my African brother. But what I will never accept from anyone, are notions of superiority based on nonsesical things like skin color. Have I made myself clear? |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 4, 2013 6:00:09 GMT -5
Come on Sage. You are falling for the mis-direction. The man is making a straw argument. You are a Vet. Of course white skin is "associated" with Europeans. I never said it didn't. The issue is "origin", Derived, Underived etc, Shriver's statement about the four loci. The Chart. Either he is playing dumb or he doesn't get it. I wont waste my time if he can't get past the sample chart I put up.
However it seems like truthteacher2007 is getting it(for blue eyes) Quote: " think that goes without saying. Rare, but not unheard of". Exact words used by Wasserman. OP.
The White skin gene is African. If he(H) doesn't get it...why waste my time discussing blue eyes. .
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Nov 4, 2013 6:43:40 GMT -5
The argument isn't whether "white people are white". lol! That is a strawman. The discussion is what are the white genes, it's origins, etc. Shriver (2013)made it clear, Norton et al agrees and a few others. The man don't get it. I am waaay ahead of any racialist.
If he can't get past that then we stop here. We can't even begin to discuss blues and the gene. And I don't need pictures or videos. I need instead a sharp mind to understand charts, genes and data.
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Post by anastasiaescrava on Nov 4, 2013 7:10:55 GMT -5
@ Herodotus
I don't have a fascination with light skin or light eyes.
The only thing I'm interested in is the diversity of African people.
Colorism is disgusting and all skin tones are beautiful.
The thing that I cannot accept is that the most genetically diverse people cannot produce blue eyes without European blood.
I have a picture of Mbuti pygmy girl with Blue eyes.
I'm pretty sure European and Eurasian Blood is not there or minimal at the most.
Anybody wanna take this ES?
Because I am Honestly and Truly interested in an Answer once and for all.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Nov 4, 2013 13:24:34 GMT -5
Come on Sage. You are falling for the mis-direction. Look a here. I'm my own man and I stand by what I said. Not agreeing w/you does not qualify as misdirection. We aren't white w/blue eyes and are not noted as such. We are black, brown, red, and yellow (complexionwise) w/brown, red-brown, hazel, and occasionally green eyes. All else is nonsense or an anomaly that in some places can lead to murder. I will count millions of regular complexioned Africans for every one non-albino African you can find with pink skin or blue eyes. No doubt about it and you and everybody else not out their damn mind knows that's true and factual. If any of you had to go out in the street and find just five pink skinned or blue eyed non-miscegenated Africans before sundown or die I'll read all your obituaries in the paper day after tomorrow, period. That's the point. So rare as to be considered virtually non-existent. I repeat, in all my life I have never met a non-albino pink skinned indigenous African or a blue eyed iA, nowhere from the continent w/o European parentage at some immediate level. So cut the crap already. We don't have everything Euros have, nor do we need to have what Euros have. We are black and comely just the way we are. But go ahead, carry on w/your knee-jerk reactionary "everything the whites have we have too" thread. |
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Post by herodotus on Nov 4, 2013 17:01:56 GMT -5
Come on Sage. You are falling for the mis-direction. The man is making a straw argument. You are a Vet. Of course white skin is "associated" with Europeans. I never said it didn't. The issue is "origin", Derived, Underived etc, Shriver's statement about the four loci. The Chart. Either he is playing dumb or he doesn't get it. I wont waste my time if he can't get past the sample chart I put up. However it seems like truthteacher2007 is getting it(for blue eyes) Quote: " think that goes without saying. Rare, but not unheard of". Exact words used by Wasserman. OP. The White skin gene is African. If he(H) doesn't get it...why waste my time discussing blue eyes. . The derived APBA2 (OCA2) mutation never produced white skin. You've already been corrected on this more than once, repeating a lie is just delusional. APBA2 (OCA2) is associated with lighter brown skin shades, but not pale white. Only (as far as we know) Ala111Thr (SLC24A5) is associated with the latter. Ala111Thr was absent in Africans until recently. It only entered a very small minority of Africans (mostly coastals) via gene flow with Europeans: "The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya)." (Pagini et al. 2012) If you read Beleza et al. (2012) discussed is the depigmentation phases Europeans went through. They went through at least two. The final "whitening" or literal pale phase (the SLC24A5 allele), was restricted to Europeans only. So your claim the "white skin gene is African" is complete nonsense. Human variation in skin tone:  I never claimed Africans are limited to the darkest hues. As Relethford (2000) and others have demonstrated, Africans have the most skin pigmentation diversity (basically summarised by the above poster). They don't though have fair or pale white skin (look at the hands near the bottom from the photo above). Accepting the fact Africans have the highest phenotypic variation should not be confused with the idea they possess every single human feature - they certainly don't. |
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Post by herodotus on Nov 4, 2013 17:44:04 GMT -5
@ Herodotus I don't have a fascination with light skin or light eyes. The only thing I'm interested in is the diversity of African people. Colorism is disgusting and all skin tones are beautiful. The thing that I cannot accept is that the most genetically diverse people cannot produce blue eyes without European blood. I have a picture of Mbuti pygmy girl with Blue eyes. I'm pretty sure European and Eurasian Blood is not there or minimal at the most. Anybody wanna take this ES? Because I am Honestly and Truly interested in an Answer once and for all. Someone linked to a blog on this subject, and the comments there show a sizable portion of African-Americans are indeed obsessed with trying to prove white skin and blue eyes are black features. A post summarizes this mindset quite well: blackeyesincolor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/famous-people.htmlThis is the "everything the whites have we have too" delusion as was mentioned above. Neither white skin or blue eyes are though African features. All blue eyed people share a common ancestor from the Black Sea region where the mutation arose: www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-511473/All-blue-eyed-people-traced-ancestor-lived-10-000-years-ago-near-Black-Sea.html"The thing that I cannot accept is that the most genetically diverse people cannot produce blue eyes without European blood" -- but why out of the high variation of traits Africans do possess are you fixated with blue eyes, which are one of the few non-African features? |
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Mercy me! Just imagine!
